A Small Victory

Would that more parents were like you, Michele.

A side-benefit of telling your daughter that her body is not a commodity is that she won't come home with a scar on her back from selling a kidney.

i have two daughters, 3 and 4, and i lay awake nights thinking about this stuff. how should i approach the subject 8,9,10 years from now? if i tell them "don't have sex!" then perhaps they'll think they can't come to me if they're having sex and get into trouble. i also don't want to give them the impression that sex is a-ok.
i'd love to say something like, "look, your hormones are going to try to convince you otherwise, but please be aware of that and realize intellectually that sex right now is NOT okay."

With you all the way.Mine is 7 ,and it is insane how loose people are about decency.We were watching Jeff Corwin on TV one night and they went into a riff about him not wearing unerwear,and she asked me what is that about.I calmly told her that some people have hygiene issues and laughed about it,but,c'mon,where can a parent go to maintain that innocence that is so precious?When I complained on their website I was treated like a Purtian psycho.The clothes thing,OMG,what they sell for 7 yr olds appalls me,let alone teens.Sounds like you and Nat are doing OK.Good luck.

My daughter is six, and I think about this stuff too. My worst seems to be the "hooking up" version of dating. Where a young girl gets treated like a hooker you don't have to pay.
I'm trying to provide my children with self-respect, if society isn't going to help at least it can get out of the way.

my parents taught us about sex from a fairly young age. They taught us the proper names for things. How babies are formed, everything. But at the same time, everytime they taught this. They taught that God created sex for our pleasure in the proper time and place. And that proper time and place was after marriage, with our husbands.

It was never even a question for either of us whether we would "try out" sex before marriage. That wasn't the place for it. Period.

My parents' expectations were high. And we strove to meet them.

I have to think if they had taught us all this, and said "But if you have sex, be sure to use a condom" that neither my sister nor I would have waited (esp because I was 30 years old when I got married. And had a couple of guy friends who I wanted to do something for because I felt sorry for them). Because the expectation aired would have then been NOT to remain abstinent. But, rather, to protect yourself.

It is damned worrisome. I have tried to teach my kids values, but the almost constant stream of this stuff is overwhelming.

My daughter Georgia, at age 2, can locate her vagina, breasts, and butt. This is intentional. It is better to label the body parts correctly so that there is less of a stigma behind them and helps children with their sexual identity (as in gender).

I want my daughter to be comfortable asking questions because I want to avoid having her make the awful mistake of having sex before she is ready.

Dean Esmay is having a conversation from the opposite end of the spectrum. One of his readers suggested that a good gift for a teenage girl was a dildo and a masturbation book.

I cannot rule my daughter's life with an iron fist if I plan on having her be herself, so I will have to try my damndest to educate her and let her know that she doesn't have to have anal to be respected or give hummers to be popular. But I'll be fighting a system that preys on her insecurity. Sigh...

We would all want our children to grow up innocent but smart. The only thing is, with knowledge comes a loss of innocence; so you can't always have both. I guess the only thing we can do as parents is arm our kids with awareness and pray they make the right decisions. The reason this causes us all such worry is because it is a direct reflection of the values we as parents have instilled in our children. Trusting the kid to choose the right is kind of the ultimate test of how good a daddy(or mommy) you are.

My two daughters are 19 and 18 and believe me, it doesn't get any easier. Communication is the key. You also need to somehow convince them that they can benefit from your experience. My parents always told me that there was nothing I could do that they did not have some experience with. Planned Parenthood is an easy out for children who have nowhere else to go.

God Bless and good luck!

My daughter was born in March 2000 and I was a conservative by December 2000. There were other things going on as well, but this was a big part. As she's 4, we haven't quite reached that point yet, but I expect in a few short years I will be haranguing store clerks everywhere with the question: "Why do you expect my daughter to dress like a whore? Do you dress your daughter like a whore, because that seems to be the only kind of clothes you sell."

Well, I probably really won't do that, but it iwll be tempting. One teenagre recently wrote Nordstrom's with a complaint to this effect, and actually prompted a decent response:

http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/skimpy25.htm

If my mom could see these teenage girls today, then maybe she wouldn't think, I was goin to hell, because I pegged my levis back in 1965. It is always something. I think they probably are cutting into the strip bar's business. 'Why go to a strip bar when you can see it on the street'.

I agree with the concept of sex education - the "how it works" variety. Better to show someone what a bomb looks like before they pick one up and set it off.

I can't agree with teaching practical sex enhancement techniques to teens. They can get those tips (also no pun intended) later, when they are adults.

Maybe I'm a prude, but this is way over the top.

I would assume the anal stuff was for gay males? Didn't read it, tbh. I know some guys like the idea of jiving a girl up the ass, but how many girls are into this? For real? Why either would want to be might be a better question.

I'll say this, I'm not a parent, so maybe I have a different POV, but the page doesn't bother me at all. It's just the US catching up to the rest of the world as far as sex education goes. And this page is hardly an anomaly. There are many out there just like it.

I guess the way I see it, with Bush trying to take over school sex ed with ridiculous abstinence only programs, pages like this are needed.

I don't have a daughter (although I'm happy to say that I might soon) but I've often thought that more frank talk about the emotional and dangerous aspects of sex would be appropriate. I also do not for the life of me understand why anyone thinks that classes in kids which promote abstinence, monogamy, and marriage as an ideal are a bad thing. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with common sense.

Girls are peculiarly vulnerable when it comes to sex but boys are hardly invulnerable. Abstinence is an option and should be promoted as safe, healthy, and totally acceptable. Giving girls the right encouragement to say "no" seems like a good idea to me, and telling boys they don't have to be ashamed at "not getting any" is also good.

I think what I find most disturbing about that planned parenthood site is not that it gives frank answers to real questions, but that it does so little to discuss the alternatives and does so much to make sex totally acceptable for teens.

No they're not "promoting" it, they're just emmbracing it. If there's much difference.

And here's the thing: the most common slander in response to all this will be to say that those who are objecting are prudes, fundamentalists, want to force their personal morality on others, etc. Bah.

Thanks for such an informative blog.
I have already sent your link to family and friends with young kids.

I am so glad to be a prude! The liberal media, liberal Democrats are doing what they can to destroy the wall between adults and childhood.

Check out this Dennis Prager article;
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20040803.shtml

Yes, Ratan. Pages that tell teens how to give a proper blowjob and how to make anal sex more comfortable are really needed. Because Bush made it so.

Pardon me while I dismiss your entire post.

Ratan,

Come back when you are a parent and we'll see how much your opinion has changed.

Thanks Michele, another well expressed and much needed post.

I don't have a daughter yet. I have a 20 month old boy and I think it is equally important to be teaching our young men how to properly value women. In my naive opinion, it is like how you fight prostitution, without johns, there is no market for hookers. If you have boys rejecting this idea, then the girls will stop looking and acting that way.

Well said Michele.

I have little problem with an academic approach to sex ed; I have a huge one with their advocacy however. And this is advocacy, pure and simple.

Side thought: PP is a business, for the most part. This site is clearly part of their marketing approach to making their services more palatable and necessary.

call it brand building, which is was it is.

thanks for the tip on this, and props to your nicely crafted commentary.

Dean said:

"And here's the thing: the most common slander in response to all this will be to say that those who are objecting are prudes, fundamentalists, want to force their personal morality on others, etc. Bah."

This is so true. Of course, it's perfectly fine for them to shove their ideas down everyones throats (please pardon the image that brings to mind....)

I am far from a prude, but I think this kind of thing is just plain wrong.

As is Carrot top.

i concur.

Good point rod,i agree.It goes to the whole "choice" thing being one-sided.Here is the SF area,I regularly have women ask if I will teach my daughter about her"choice"in abortion rights,and when I tell them that I will teach her that she should wait until she is married and ready to have children they treat me like a bloody heathen.

As our society becomes more homoerotic and slouches toward acceptance of pedophelia, I am the father of 4 daughters ages 16, 14, 12 and 10 (and two sons, ages 7 and 1.5) and a good reason why they are smart, well-informed and don't date is that they aren't subjected to the sick fantasies of "pushing the envelope" entertainers and writers whose only talent is to titillate, not to elevate.

Want to stack the deck in favor of raising good kids? Pull the cable TV plug and install Cybersitter and have your Internet-ready computer in the living room, NEVER in a kid's bedroom where the door can be closed. No R rated movies without a parent. None. Not in the VHS or DVD player, either.

Oh, and sending them to a parochial school that at least pays lip service to standards and values is also beneficial.

One of the best techniques I have is to be clear that I have 3 answers to most questions: yes, no and not yet. The last REALLY comes in handy since it is really a "yes, but not now". That way, kids feel like they aren't being thwarted but parented. The answer they hear is "yes", but it's qualified. It's a confirmation that while the instinct may be right (and the joy of sex is a Divine blessing or else He wouldn't have made it feel so darned great... even long after one's procreative years), the timing isn't. A good question to ask when confronted with whining on this issue is "Would you want a younger sister, maybe 2 years younger, doing this, too?" It reinforces that the girl probably DOES agree that there is a time/place that is premature. Another good argument is to ask "When you are 35 and have been married for a while to the right man, do you really think that you'll have wanted to have been with other men? Think about it... isn't intimacy inversely related to variety? Would you EVER want your husband thinking about any of the 20 other women he's been with when he's with you?"

And parents of boys need to tell their sons that it is NOT ok to play the field and screw around. Want to put the fear of G-d in them? Be crystal clear from when he reaches the age of 11 that you will boot the bum out, no second chances, if he is caught having penetrative sex (straight, oral or anal) with anyone. No car. No rent. No $ to pay to have an abortion. No apologies and coming back after. No experimentation until they are ready to leave home forever. Sex is the "fruit from the tree of knowledge" and you get kicked out of the Garden of Eden (home) for violating this rule.

Kids suffer from VNDS: "Vitamin 'No' Deficiency Syndrome." You are a parent, not a "best friend".

More power to you, Michele.

Aaron, I'm going to have to take issue with this:

more homoerotic and slouches toward acceptance of pedophelia

Can you expand on that, please?

Also, we do have cable tv. I don't think removing cable all together is the answer; you just have to know what your kids are watching and set ground rules. Removing all temptation is not going to teach them about making good decisions.

Personally, the site doesn't offend my sensibilities. I'd like to think that my relationship with my children would be open enough that they could talk to me about this stuff. "Hey dad, what's with this website that tells me how to play with someone's ass?" "Oh, that's just some PP bullshit kiddo." Then I could explain the issue to them, and why the PP approach is lacking. There are worse things going on in this world that directly effect my teens' moral growth than the libbies down at PP running around giving tips on how to stroke it.

I saw this site a few weeks ago and I have to say I was upset. I have a nine year old girl and I tend to worry about this sort of thing all the time. Matter - of - fact she asked me the other day what does BJ mean. I said wha wha do you mean? She says...like BJs towing...hmmmm I narrowly escaped that one. The problem I have with this site is they are trying to take over the role of the parent. Spreading their values to your child that its okay to be loose and have all sorts of sex -- but be sure to where a condom.

I agree with most posts here that no teenager let alone some people in their twenties are capable of processing the emotion of a relationship with sex at an early age. How do I know... well I'm 36 and I think I know a thing or two....

Why is it that we grew up okay without sites like this and for some reason our kids can't. The fact that they bring up anal and oral sex as not actually having sex is silly and gives no legitimacy to this site whatsoever.

So the slippery slope of the 60's and 70's -- Myron Magnet's The Dream and the Nightmare -- really was the first step towards the end of Western Civ.

Like a broken clock, Bubba gets it right for once

I can't for the life of me figure out PP's agenda, and how they benefit from encouraging teens to be promiscuous. They linked to a study about condoms "preventing" the spread of an STD by about 60% without mentioning 1) what the condoms are for and 2) that abstinence is 100% effective.

I knew a lot about sex by the time I was 13, but the most important things I learned are that sex is for adults and that you shouldn't have sex unless you're prepared for the consequences.

I think the fact that PP is so scared of abstinence is very telling, but I'm not sure what it tells.

Michele, I hope there are many more moms out there like you. I have two sons and it's a bear trying to protect their innocence. I can't even begin to imagine how difficult it must be for the mother of girls.

Aaron,

How would kicking your kids out of the house for having sex be beneficial? Are you being serious, or just trying to scare them?

Peer pressure and all... Even if one of your kids at age 14 or 15 would be caught having sex, you'd even kick them out?

Growing up in a religious household and church, I'd often hear this line from other parents (but not my own). "If my daughter got pregnant, I'd kick her out." Or "If my son got a girl pregnant..."

I don't think it ever got to that point, but I shudder to think a parent would actually do something like this. Even more damaging would be for the unborn. With a young parent and no financial backing for prental care...

Aaron, you wouldn't really kick your son out on in his ear for having sex. I couldn't really hear you that well over all the Bible thumping, but I think you said something to that effect. If I recall, one of religion's greatest lessons is forgiveness. Adam and Eve may have gotten the boot, but in the end, God forgave humanity and allowed them the opportunity to come back to the fold.

Good thoughtful article. I have had similar thoughts as I see 13 year olds with "Juicy" written across their butts. We mustn't blame Planned Parenthood, though. It's not as if they are leading this change. I believe they are following it and trying to at least attach some responsibility to it. We can debate whether that's right or wrong and if in fact they are actually assisting the trend, but I think their motivations are in the right place.

"I know a nice convent that's looking for a few good nuns."

That's one that's worth a little more thinking about. You, and most worried parents who feel the way you do, are in the unenviable position of not being able to tell your children what celibacy is good for. Or, for that matter, what sex is good for.

If the dialog comes down solely to being "safe" (physically or emotionally), it merely becomes part of the endless wrangle over risky behavior that Mom Nature has built into our species over time immemorial:

"You're not old enough! That's not safe!"

"I am too old enough! And I don't care!"

It is as true as ever that what influences children most, in the end, is the personal example we set.

You say you know what your daughter thinks about it. Does she REALLY know what you think about it? And is it the same thing as what you have told her?

Have you been candid your personal experiences with the pluses and minuses of your erotic choices? Have you shown your daughter the scars on your heart from your bad choices? Or been open about the joys of your good choices?

Since abstinence is fighting against Nature, it is damned hard work no matter what signals the culture gives. Unless you offer persuasive reasons for doing such hard work, backed by personal example, you are swimming against the tide.

A Nunnery is more than a home for wayward girls. Given your personal views, I wonder what you would think if your daughter decided to take you up on the offer.

My god, Joseph. Could you please get your tongue-in-cheek detector fixed?

Michele: thanks for your wonderful post. I'm a single father raising a 13-year old daughter pretty much by myself and know exactly what you're going thru. I thank God every night that, at least SO FAR, she has shown much more maturity than can be expected from a 13-YO. I agree with you 100%.

A very important point you make is the parents allowing their children to dress like they do. If the parent cannot say "no" to their child and mean it, how in the world does the parent think the daughter is going to learn to say "no" and mean it? It is the parents' main job to teach their children what is important and allowing them to dress like street-walkers is evidence of a job not done.

I know that it was tongue in cheek. That's my point. You don't take celibacy seriously as an option, either, so why should she?

Now I'll amplify on that personally. I am a Buddhist, and we have a very small but still very vital community in the West of monks and nuns.

I'm not part of it, but I take the choice seriously because it is a real one. And, in America, unlike Asia, Buddhist celibacy has more appeal to women than to men.

The question still remains: what do you really want for your daughter's erotic life? And can you be open to her about the example your life gives?

She knows what you don't want her to do. We all have known that about our parents. Does she know what you do want her to do?

You ask who buys those clothes for girls. Quite often, it's the girls themselves. Quite a few kids have the money to buy their own clothes without their parents' knowledge or permission. They've been known to change clothes when they go out.

I had a similar experience with my then teenaged younger stepson some years ago. He wanted to go out wearing shorts one cold winter evening. I made him change into long pants. The next morning, I found the long pants laying by the sidewalk. He'd gotten outside and stripped to his shorts, then forgotten to pick up the evidence. BUSTED!

I never raised girls but this year both of my stepsons became parents. The younger stepson one has a son and the older one has a daughter. Yes, my wife and I worry about the grandkids. I can only hope that the "Daddy's Little Hooker" fashion goes out of style before they reach your daughter's age.

In the end, we have virtually no control over what our kids do when they leave home. Perhaps the best we can do is try to give them the best information possible and hope to instill in them good values so they can make informed decisions.

Joseph:

what do you really want for your daughter's erotic life.

She's 14. I do not want her to have an erotic life. And when she becomes an adult, it's none of my damn business how erotic her life is.

You don't take celibacy seriously as an option, either, so why should she?

Because I made a tongue-in-cheek comment to a group of adults reading this site, that means I don't take my daughter's celibacy seriously? I can't even argue with you, Joseph. You're baiting, I'm done biting.

Larry,

Unfortunately, I know a lot of mothers who buy these clothes for their kids. Half the kids I see dressed like that are with their parents.

Every day, I wake up and thank God that I don't have a daughter. I would be insane.

I am not baiting. It is still the case that the example you set will mean more for her and to her than anything you say.

michele is right, I've seen several instances where the mom and daughter are dressed similarly.

Want to know what you can do? Talk to your kids. Be honest with them. My wife has talked to two of my daughters about sex, what boys want, etc. Both of them are smart, well balanced kids who know what type of trouble they can get in. My soon to be 13 year odl daughter has a "boyfriend" who has my seal of approval after he and I had a brief chat about being a gentleman and not wanting to pay child support when he was 14.

Example of a permissive parent. My daughter used to hang around with a girl "Elaine". "Elaine's" parents let her daughter run around the neighborhood until curfew, let her go anywhere with her friends, didn't ask any question, etc, etc, etc. Now, at 11 she's well on her way to being pregnant at 12.

My daughters know about boys, about sex, about the pain that can come from a relationship gone too far, etc. I'm sure that one will do something one of these days that I will regret, but I've prepared them the best that I can. We keep the lines of communication open constantly...

It's just another victory in feminism and Dr. Spock and wanting to be liked by their kids. Because certain generations refuse to be like their parents and we're still paying the price.

No consequences for anything.

I was at The Arch this weekend. There really are some people of a certain age who should not be wearing short/tight anything. EYYYYYEWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

MG2 -- will be haranguing store clerks everywhere with the question: "Why do you expect my daughter to dress like a whore? Do you dress your daughter like a whore, because that seems to be the only kind of clothes you sell."--

It's not the clerks, it's the buyers and the CEOs.

Nordy's has already taken care of this, an 11 y.o. wrote a letter saying she'd love to shop there but their clothes were unacceptable. Her letter worked its way up to the CEO, he sent her a letter and they began designing clothes more conservative.

I think Sears could make money if they took that tack and advertised it.

I made a rule a long time ago when it came to clothes shopping for my daughter...we both have to agree on it before I pay for it. This gives Anna the right to veto as well as me, and I can honestly say we've never had a disagreement over what she wears.

She's 14 now, and has developed a natural modesty on her own. She was thrilled recently to see that the shorts on display at Target weren't as skimpy as last season's, and she walks past the belly shirts without pausing. Her favorite t-shirt is black with a graphic of Link's weapons on it - the caption reads "Don't make me go Zelda on you". She rarely wears makeup - she asked if she could buy some earlier this year, and I agreed, knowing that the novelty would soon wear off - and I was pleased to note that after she came out of the bathroom after carefully applying it, I was hard pressed to tell if she was wearing any makeup at all.

Right now, I'm toying with the idea of sitting down with her and watching the movie "Thirteen". She's asked to see it and I've told her no - there are a couple of R-rated movies that I have allowed her to see, but this one scares me, to be honest. The evolution of what the young girl in the movie experiences is something that I want Anna to see as a possibility...something that could happen if she abandons her values in favor of seeking approval from peers.

The most important gift we can give our kids is a sense of self-worth. If the message they hear from the moment they are born is that they are valued for who they are, and that they have gifts and talents which we appreciate and support, I truly believe that our children will be less likely to look for approval outside our sphere of influence. Anna is a beautiful girl - the kind that turns heads, and she has always attracted attention for her looks, ever since she was a baby. People would cross the grocery store to tell me how pretty she was, and I can't count the times we've been told (in her presence) that she should be in beauty pageants or go into modeling. I always made a point to tell her how beautiful she is on the inside....and to emphasize her other strengths - her intelligence, her athletic ability, her kindness, her ability to make friends wherever she goes. And I think that's helped to keep her grounded in reality, and not have her sense of self-worth be centered around what she looks like - but rather who she is.

So far it's working, but I know there's still the dating / boyfriend world to manuver through. Hopefully, she will be equipped with everything she needs to make it through safely.

You and I have a lot in common, Michele - just know you're not alone in believing that abstinence is a worthy goal, and that your desire to instill strong moral values in Nat is highly commendable, indeed.

I guess the way I see it, with Bush trying to take over school sex ed with ridiculous abstinence only programs, pages like this are needed.

OR,

instead of pushing morals/mores we take a page out of the smoking/food activists' book and start hammering how much STDs are costing society and in the grand collectivist society the people who are pushing free for all/no consequences want (which is trying to be implemented in Britain see Samizdata), they as good stewards of our nation should quit costing us so much money. It's for the poor, national health care and social security, don't you know.

And when it gets rationed.....

Okay, lets take the gloves off hear. I'm not married, have no kids and I come from an honest guy's perspective. Straight up, if we can get it we're going to be the pigs we are to get it. If the girls are going to dress like they do many will take advantage of their insecurity and not only call them whores, but will think them whores, never respect them and certainly never want to marry them. The power to change this downward spiral is in the hands of the girls. As well, guys have the power to control things by not letting their weenies control their every choice, but is much harder to do than to make the decision on whether to wear the shirt that covers their belly buttons or the one that just shows the bottom of their breast. Look, for the girls who dress like that we think nothing of them except a nice little whore.

And for those of you with kids who would like to give them an answer to the peer pressure from someone who has already given it up:

"Yeah, that's nice, except I can always become like you, but you could never become like me. When I decide to become a whore like you maybe I'll take that route."

It shuts people up pretty quickly. Course, you might start a cat fight, but who doesn't like a good cat fight?

As well, it is important to make a distinction when teaching your kids about sex before marriage and sex after marriage. I happen to think that in a "healthy" relationship the girl controls the sexual relationship (by saying "NO") prior to marriage and the guy controls it after marriage. I don't mean to say he is demanding it, just that if he is worthy of getting it after marriage he'll not need to get all huffy and puffy, but that he'll be "skilled" enough, by choice, that he'll know his spouse well enough to know what he needs to do without a fight... yeah, i know, there are going to be those who say they like the fight, etc., but you all know what I'm talking about.

For example... I have a buddy who got married. They didn't make whoopie beforehand and then when they did after a year or so he started cheating. Of course, this led to divorce and he tried to blame her for not wanting to copulate, blah, blah, blah. I had to confront him with the fact that it probably had quite a bit to do with his, eh hem, skills.

Am I right, girls?

Wow Michele. Good post.

It sickens me everyday. I have three grown (youngest 22) daughters. We made it through unscathed. But not without a few frank talks about choices. A few went like this: Sex for a teenage boy lasts all of about 60 seconds. That's from start to finish. Do you want your life to be changed for a 60 second bit with a guy who doesn't know the color of your eyes? That was then, this is now: 22 year old explains it for all of us. The anal sex thing isn't for gay guys only. It's the best way to protect your virginity and keep from getting pregnant. Ugh! So we've allowed the Hilton sisters to set the standard for all of the teens out there. If they're making videos why shouldn't we? And if that wasn't enough, Abercrombie has helped teens understand that sex in groups is okay too! 22 year old reports that the group thing is big for teens now.

I pray for you all. And for my new grandaughter who is just a week old today.

Don't run from your responsibility as a parent. Michele - you're asking the right questions. Keep up the good work.

She's 14. I do not want her to have an erotic life.

That's ridiculous. And unhealthy. Everyone has an erotic life, even prepubescent children. Ask a child psychologist.

I can pretty much guarantee you that your daughter masturbates (the overwhelming majority of people do by that age). What do you think she's imagining while she's doing that? Maybe boys, maybe girls— but she's thinking about people while she's doing it. Obviously her erotic life is going to make you uncomfortable. That's fine. But pretending it doesn't exist isn't going to be good for either of you.

Sometimes I wonder if parenting causes brain damage. I really do.

Straight up, if we can get it we're going to be the pigs we are to get it.

Of course this guy's not a parent and he's clearly brain damaged.

Joel, that's such a cop-out. Boys have just as much ability to say no as girls. Boys are just as responsible for a sexual relationship (and the consequences) as girls. Putting the responsibility on the girls is bullshit.

I was one of those girls who chose to wait. Not until marriage, but until I felt ready. I was 16. Too young, but I was informed, I knew what I was doing, and I was protected, courtesy of PP. My mother was smart enough to teach me about her mistakes and I was mature enough to learn from them. I think it's unrealistic to teach our kids to wait until marriage (by the way, I have two, a boy and a girl) and expect that they will. It's a fine line we walk, wanting our children to come to us about sex, but not wanting them to actually do it. They key, I think, is to teach them early on about sex, but to also teach them abstinence.

My mother did an excellent job of teaching us about sex. All of my friends were having sex at 12 and 13 and I chose to wait. I never got pregnant (until I wanted to, after marriage) or an STD because I was educated. I use the same method with my children and plan to continue.

Joel, you got a skewed worldview, but I like what your going at. I belive it was the Dr. Dre who surmised that 'If you act like a ho, then you'll get slapped like a ho.'* Or something in that vein. Women who command respect based on the quality of character and integerity will most certainly get it. Conversely, men who don't aknowledge this aspect of the relationship will surely be left in the lurch, as your buddy may have found out.

*See also: "Bitches", by Shawn 'Jay-Z' Carter; in which the artist delineates the differences between two kinds of women, 'sisters' and 'bitches'.

All of my friends were having sex at 12 and 13 and I chose to wait.

Jeebus Crow. I graduated from high school less than 10 years ago, so this isn't a back-in-my-day viewpoint.

But, among my little group of friends, nobody lost virginity that young. We talked about it a lot, but the soonest among us was 16 - most of us waited until college. (Not always by choice, though, heh.)

Granted, we weren't the cool kids. But we weren't total losers (hahaha, I waited until college for that, too!) We were the middle of the road kids.

Either I grew up in an ABSURDLY sheltered town, or my parents and friends' parents were just lucky...

Slightly OT, a far worse "threat" among my peer group was pot. Even some of those very same kids who abstained from sex until college were getting stoned when they were 13.

Cop-out? Here I am, being completely honest on how guys really look at girls, warning you to make sure your girls know how guys really work (by sight and not talking), and then I tell you I think it was my buddy's fault for his lack of sexual skills and this is a cop out? That's rich, Annie.

Let me be totally upfront on my belief - IT IS EASIER FOR A GIRL TO SAY NO THAN A GUY! If you think differently you're just fooling yourself, again, and unwilling to accept reality. Its not a cop out when someone is admitting a shortcoming - IT IS A WARNING!!! WARNING!!! Guys are just as responsible for their actions, but to say its JUST AS easy for guys to say "NO" is laughable and extremely naive.

Joel, what the hell are you talking about? How is it harder for a guy to say no than a girl? Are you saying you've never declined a sexual overture before?

Is your evidence for this statement the fact that you've been turned down more times than you've turned down?

I linked over from Ace of Spades and his posting of yours has some other stuff in it that I do not see here. Could be just formating but it is truth.

I always find it fun to listen to comments from people without children. People with children see the world differently regardless of their own behavior as teens. People with DAUGHTERS are even more paranoid. I have four.

I was an only child and raised to have a great deal of self respect and I still feel i was stupid in my teens. But something is different now, society seems to celebrate this stupidity. Mainstream media champions it even.

You want to tell kids the truth about sex...tell them the entire truth. Not just that is it OK if you are resonsible. Truth is, teens are not responsible.

As to the person who said above:
"Sometimes I wonder if parenting causes brain damage. I really do."

It isn't brain damage. It is concern and a desire to not have our children make a choice that could impact the rest of their lives.

It is making our daughters understand that even though he says he loves you, he doesn't.

Not enough to raise a baby with you.

Not enough to give up all his friend, freedom or his freakin' xbox.

It is about you daughter needing to know that when she gets knocked-up she is going to be more alone than she ever thought possible because this boy she loves is going to start crying and acting like the child he is. Blaming her and telling her it is her problem.

It isn't so much boys are evil or bad, they are not. They are just not Men.

Joel, you do your gender a great disservice by making them all out to be incapable of self-control. All the men I know can and do say no when it's appropriate.

"I agree with the concept of sex education - the "how it works" variety. Better to show someone what a bomb looks like before they pick one up and set it off."

I have to say I found this analogy rather amusing. I also agree with it completely.

I am so glad I don't have children. In this world where we dress up our children to look like little ho's, you parents have some tough decisions to make. I'm also surprised by the handful of responses saying sites like this are okay. Teaching teenagers how to give blow jobs is okay? Teach children about anal sex is a good thing? And teaching children to respect their bodies is bad? I graduated in '88, and crap like this for children was unthinkable, even for a rebel, long-haired stoner like I used to be.

Someone indicated that the US was simply catching up with Europe. Whatever. If pages like this are the future of morality, I'm happy to be a barbarian.

OK, I'll throw this out without meaning it to be chum in the water.

- Yes, we are all creatures of free will and both sexes share equal responsibility.
- That being said, there are certain genetic tendencies (low physical investment in pregnancy for boys) and unfair cultural differences (boy sleeping around=stud, girl sleeping around=hussy) that changes up the dynamic a bit. Of course, that speaks to groups in general, and proves nothing with respect to a particular girl or boy. I'm not sure if that's the point that joel is making, I'm just guessing.
- On the general subject, I think the issue of self-respect/self-esteem brought up by others here is important for boys and girls. You can be informative without encouraging bad behavior. I also think there's a balance between being the "cool" parent (hey, have your girlfriend sleep over so I'll know you're OK!) and the "strict" parent (no slow dancing at the prom!). Both extremes lead to bad consequences, I think.

Being a prudish parent is EXACTLY the way I would feel most comfortable.

Clearly you are doing the most important thing, being a safe sounding board for your daughter while also making it clear what you find unacceptable in sexual behavior.

We can't change the attitudes of society or what other people allow for their children, but as an individual parent it is up to us to decide what is right for OUR children.

Oh, and you are kind of prudish, but only in the appropriate way.

I have to say I'm not shocked or appalled or disturbed or even surprised by the site. I'm almost glad it's there. If those questions are asked, I think they should be answered.

PP isn't advocating teen sex via this website, either. Teens do all the advocacy of sex needed for PP to stay in business forever.

And if I heard that my daughter (age 13) had viewed that site, I'd say that's good. There are too many sources of bad information out there, so I think this site, which provides truthful--albeit explicit--information on sexual practices, is better than the kinds of crap I (inadvertently, I swear!) hear as she talks to her friends. Sex is too important for misinformation to get a grip into stupid teenage minds.

Of course, I'd also say to my daughter, "You didn't have permission to use the Internet!" She doesn't have a cell phone, a television, her own telephone, or a computer screen name. She doesn't need those, and it makes things so much easier.

And I think girls dress "that" way to outdo other girls. The opinions of boys are almost completely irrelevant to teenage girls, but the opinions of the other girls can lead to nervous breakdowns.

Joel,I have said 'NO" many many times(girl shows up at 11 pm,jumps into my bed,sez she want to have my baby.Bye Bye get out!,etc,,) so I don't buy into the 'guys will take it every time' nonsense.

And I think girls dress "that" way to outdo other girls. The opinions of boys are almost completely irrelevant to teenage girls, but the opinions of the other girls can lead to nervous breakdowns.

The opinions of boys are pretty much all teenage girls obsess over. The dressing thing has more to do with not wanting to be different than anyone else - kids that age want to fit in and be part of the group more than anything else. If their friends dress provocatively, then that's what your kid will want.

Holy smokes, people... where in my posts have I said guys are incapable of saying "NO"? Someone please point this out. Granted, I have generalized quite a bit, but if you want to get into the whole "except those with a strong ethical and moral living standard" you're preaching to the choir. Of course guys are capable of saying it... I say it on a regular basis with my girlfriend - for kisses even(because I know how easy it is for me get going). But for someone to say it is JUST AS EASY for guys to say "NO" is naive. Its just like the whole "gender equality" charade. And as far as a disservice to my gender? Again, laughable when we are talking about someone who thinks waiting means until she is sooooo mature at 16. Give me a break! That's a disservice to ones' gender.

:::Whew::: Great post and passionate comments!

Michele, you're doing great by Nat; just lay in a supply of hair color and Guiness and try not to faint as you navigate the shoals ahead. ;-)

When I was in high school 68-72 (yes, old fart here) I remember only a couple of girls getting pregnant. My youngest of four daughters starts her senior year in high school 8/30 and if the day of picking up her schedule in a couple of weeks is anything like its been for her sisters the past 10 years, there are going to be a lot of waddling pregger girls and girls with newborns also picking up their schedules. One thing a frank sexual upbringing with some strict expectations does is making teens think twice before engaging and/or being a hell of a lot more careful about how they engage. And arming your daughter(s) against peer, or dating partner, pressure is another thing you can do. Just tell your daughter you are willing to be the "bad guy".. that if she finds herself in an uncomfortable position, she can supplement her "no" with "my parents will KILL me, if I ...."

I've heard Dr. Meg Meeker interviewed several times and what she has to share will scare the beejebus outta any parents of teens. Teens just are not physically or psychologically equipped to handle the sexual relationships the society is trying to foist on them. My 22 y/o daughter has hosted a couple parties here (which my hubby and I wander through pretty constantly just to make our presence known)... Most of it reminds me of parties from my era...except for the lapdancing. I don't ever remember that going on!

And, please, can we stop with the sophistry that it is ok for teens to engage in sexual activity because "it's natural"? There are a lot of "natural" urges we all experience, but as thinking, (hopefully) rational human beings it is our responsibility to evaluate whether indulging in said urge is in our best long-term interest. Teens are physiologically changing, in body and brain structure, and their impulse control is much much less then it will be when they hit their mid-twenties, it is up to parents (and to a lesser degree, socity) to step in and take those decisions away from them if it looks like they are going to harm themselves.

Aaron,

I don't believe we are "slouching" toward pedophilia, because pedophilia is very specific in that it deals with sexual orientation towards PRE-pubescent children. However, I'd say this society has become much more lax in its attitudes towards ephebophilia (sexually attracted to teens).

Great post. It reflects the frightening reality that I, the father of a seven year old daughter, face as well.

Re: "does size matter". I originally assumed it meant the fetus. What's the difference if it's one week old and the size of a dime or seven months old and weighing 5lbs? I am left with the impression that, to Planned Parenthood, it's still a clump of cells.

I agree completely. I have no daughters, only 3 sons, and the oldest will be 16 in a month. So far, so good. If I had a daughter she would NOT be allowed to dress like the prosti-tots that we all see wandering around in suburbia -- what message could that possibly send out to the world except "I'm available and I'm not expensive"?

Here's an idea, girls: if you do NOT want the world to think of your body as an amusement park ride, dress like you are NOT an amusement park ride.

Full agreement on abstinence too; for the life of me I'll never understand the yahoos who say to parents "why bother preaching abstinence, they're going to do what they want anyway". Well, sure, if you let them walk all over you. How about NOT letting them walk all over you?

I see I had a lot of NOTs in there, sorry if it reads too screechy. Just tryin' to emphasize some words ...

Geeze, Jeff, can't you see that your "amusement park ride" comment is insensitive and that it is a COP OUT?! Sorry for the sarcasm, folks, but I couldn't agree more with Jeff on that one. So he was able to say it in a few less words than I... big deal. He's got kids and probably knows the value of silence.

The Left:
Just because most people on "the left" are preoccupied with sex doesn't mean everyone is and I am a "brain damaged" parent and also a 24 year old man, who didn't have sex until he was married, and I sure wasn't masturabting at 14! I was still playing basketball, Nintendo and hanging out with my friends.
I wasn't sheltered, i was just taught to respect myself and respect women. It kills me to see these little girls walking around with words written across their "butt" (or what little is there). The only reason you write in big bold letters across your butt is to draw attention to that area.
Thankfully, I have been reading stories of teenagers who are "rebelling" against the pop culture trends that look like they came from Sluts-R-Us. They are asking for more modest clothes, wanting to save themselves for marriage and if not marriage at least until they are older and better prepared.
Michelle, you do what you have to do to raise your daughter to respect herself and to respect others. If you can accomplish that, then congratulations, you have done a great thing!

I figured I'd better comment, because having 69 comments to a post like this just seemed wrong somehow.

Bottom line, it's all about self esteem. If your child respects their parents and themselves then they won't need sex to make them feel popular.
I live in an upper middle class suburb and it is no secret to the parents, that there are girls that will give blow jobs (intercourse is not considered o.k.) on the buses to and from the bar/bat mitzvahs. I am not kidding. Obviously, these are young girls with very skewed opinions of their self worth being raised by parents that are not paying the kind of attention to their children that they should. My sons are 25 and 30 and this stuff has been going on since they were in junior high.

However, as we all know, when your teenage daughter/son meets that "special" someone and their mutual hormones are raging, there is little a parent can do to prevent them from having sex. As parents it is imperative to educate your kids about STD, promiscuity and unwanted pregnancy. Give them the confidence to say no to their peers as well.

Wow. All I hear from the people who disagree with Michele is, "Kids are going to have sex, there's nothing they can do about it, there's nothing you can do about it, get used to it."

So you're telling me that's what you honestly believe, that's what you are telling/would tell your kids, and that you neither think it realistic nor are willing to teach your kids that abstinence is possible, and maybe even desireable? If the abstinence option isn't at least given an audience, how informed a choice is it reallly?

And who is forcing their morals upon whom at that point?

You're a Mom, and a good one. Stand and protect your kids, like you're doing. Be tough. That's love.

I think realistically that you do have to consider your child may have sex, whether you want him/her to have it or not. I am not so old that I can't remember the intensity of young love. I do not advocate promiscuity but there is a possibility your teenager may have sex before you want them to. Isn't it better to educate kids than assume that because you told them not to have sex, they won't? Forbidding rarely works and when you say abstinence, do you mean until they get married? My son is 30 and not married. If he is a virgin, then I would be rather concerned.

"Joel, you do your gender a great disservice by making them all out to be incapable of self-control. All the men I know can and do say no when it's appropriate." - Anne

I think Joel's getting an excessively hard time here, and I'd say a lot of it's due to misinterpretation and context of this discussion.

"All the men I know can and do say no when it's appropriate."

All of the men I know can say "no" when appropriate also.

The key word here is "Men".

Teenage boys aren't men. Not yet. They may affirm that they are, hotly, and vocally, but they haven't quite made it yet. A teenage boy between 13 and 18 is a walking pile of hormones geared towards thinking about sex 34 hours a day, and devoting a majority of their active attention to getting laid.

I was one once, I know. ;) At around the age of 28 that focus became a bit less all consuming. grin

It is not a vicious slander to teenage males to make sure that your daughter or goddaughter understands that "No! Sit! Good boy!" is a part of her dating responsibility - if it's at all possible, a majority of teenage boys will try their level best to convert that "No! Down boy!" into a "Yes baby!". ;]

18-22 year old males hanging out with your fourteen year old are why God invented fathers, older brothers and baseball bats - you know he's just looking for nookie. ;]

Give Joel a break - he's not being innaccurate, he's just painting with a bit too broad a brush.

Okay, I gotta chip in here. I'm a single adult male with no kids, but I am a pretty good observer :-)

It always fascinates me when I hear people go off on a screaming terror when their kids 'suddenly' hit puberty, with all that entails (a touch of rebelliousness, sexuality, sensuality, et al). People, your kids are going to respond to all those hormones EXACTLY the way you've taught them to. That is, if you haven't kept up a dialog with them from birth to puberty, then they're not likely to listen to you now. If you HAVE been open and honest with them, and they've learned to TRUST you, then you'll still be able to have on-going communication with them. If you haven't talked to them about sex, then they're going to be REAL curious about everything they've heard from everyone BUT you (you never said anything before, so why listen to you now?), and want to find out. If you've talked and explained, then it's not so overwhelming for them. If you've taught them to be thoughtful (that is, thinking about things before doing), patient, respectful (of themselves and others), and all that, then they'll make it just fine. If you haven't, they won't.

I've watched as several friends raised THEIR kids, and seen the results. Basically, if you've raised them in a way that there's mutual trust and respect, you can help guide them - but there's no way in the world you're going to stop them when they figure "it's time". But that 'time' will be later, and more considered; not a 'what the hell, let's do it'.

Ironbear,

The funny thing is that I'm not even the type of guy I'm warning these naive individuals about - I have a solid base of morals and ethics. But I do know, that if I had bought into the Darwinian model that is taught in public education and coupled that with the "well, we know you're going to do it so here is the 'protectiont'" education I would have been one dangerous teenager - young 20 somethin'. I'm just trying to give these people a dose of reality that there are PLENTY of those guys out there (if not the vast majority), not paint with a broad brush.

I've never been married and have no kids (though I did mentor two boys with severe behavioral problems for many years), so you can take this for what it's worth. My viewpoint is that people who fall on either extreme - very strict or very permissive - are focused more on their own comfort than on doing the best possible job raising their child. My feeling is that kids in general appreciate discipline, though you'll never hear them say it. I completely agree that parents who are incapable of telling their 12 year old child she will not be dressing like Pamela Anderson are pathetically misguided. The problem is that like anything else, discipline can be taken too far. If you do that, if you push too hard for your idea of perfection, the kid just stops listening and you've lost him/her.

If kids can see that they're loved and that there's thought and reason behind your actions, and that you're consistent, you'll do OK. It doesn't mean they'll never make a mistake or never get hurt - that's a fact of life from which you cannot shield them, no matter how desperately you wish you could. It does, however, tilt the odds greatly in their favor for avoiding the worst kinds of self-abasing, self-destructive behavior. I'm not sure one can hope for a great deal more - some lessons in life invariably do have to be learned the hard way.

I hope you guys show your children this article I read about awhile ago: Oral sex linked to mouth cancer. HPV can cause oral and throat cancer when contracted orally just as it can cause cervical cancer when contracted vaginally.

Also, perhaps people should start lobbying to get laws passed permitting the cops to issue tickets to people walking around with their breasts, butt, etc hanging out? Children dressed like the village prostitute and their parents should get tickets, etc.