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Hostage Murdered

The South Korean hostage has been killed. Kim Sun-il was 33 years old. He had three college degrees. He had a family and many friends who remember him as a determined, quiet man. Kim Sun-il was a victim of the war on terror, a victim of the enemy we must defeat. Faster, please. [My leftie readers may now commence with the "He was killed because......" cliches]

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» Kim Sun-il Beheaded by Islamists from Outside the Beltway
Al Jazeera is contradicting the previous report: AP — Iraqi Militants Reportedly Behead Korean An Iraqi militant group has beheaded its South Korean hostage, Al-Jazeera television reported Tuesday.The pan-Arab station said it had received a video... [Read More]

» Kim Sun-il Beheaded from Backcountry Conservative
Al Jazeera, ABC and Fox News have reported that South Korean hostage Kim Sun-il has been beheaded by terrorists in Iraq. Fox News showed a new video of terrorists standing behind the hostage reading a statement while he was apparently... [Read More]

» South Korean Beheaded In Iraq from Wizbang
This morning there was word of a deadline extension and negotiations. All for naught...CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - An Iraqi militant group has beheaded its South Korean hostage (Kim Sun-il), Al-Jazeera television reported Tuesday. The South Korean foreign mini... [Read More]

» Where's the Enola Gay when you need her? from Babalu Blog
My watch should have something to remind me that I am still living in the 21st Century. Maybe somewhere right below where it says June 22 it should also show the year I live in. Just to keep me from... [Read More]

» Another One from Spot On
The South Korean hostage held in Iraq has been decapitated. More here, here and here.... [Read More]

» An Amendment from JimSpot
I've previously stated: Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who poses a threat to the security and peace of the citizenry... [Read More]

» Next Beheading Victim? - South Korean Kim Sun-il Video from Hot Abercrombie Chick
As was unfortunately expected, Kim Sun-il appears to have been executed. These beheadings are becoming disturbingly routine news. [Read More]

» Religion of Peace Strikes Again from Inoperable Terran
The South Korean hostage has been decapitated. Nothing more to say really.... [Read More]

» This Was, Of Course, Inevitable from Velociworld
I hadn't realized, and just found out at Michele's and Jeff's that South Korean abductee Kim Sun-il had been beheaded by his Muslim (!) captors. I'm not going to rant. The maelstrom surrounding my last rant was painful to me... [Read More]

» Beheaded from Faithiepoo!
Until recently, it was a word used only when speaking of history, the barbarisms of times long past, Henry the... [Read More]

» I can't end the day on such a dreary note from it comes in pints?
So I have to add this to lighten the mood: Omnipotence becomes her. [UPDATE] Almost forgot this amusing thing: The Lefterator! Courtesy of commenters at Michele and Jeff. And a bonus: Cheshirecat seems to have the prototype for the Lefterator.... [Read More]

» Hassan Chop! from Jumping To Conclusions
The first song in the wonderful Disney movie Aladdin begins like so: Oh I come from a land, from a faraway place Where the caravan camels roam Where they cut off your ear If they don't like your face It's... [Read More]

» Justice is sweet from Maladjusted
Afghans behead Talibans in revenge for beheadings Can I get a hell yeah? Seriously, the only way to take care of these motherfuckers is to get rid of them one by one. There is no such thing as an innocent Taliban member, so the more that dies the... [Read More]

Comments

To paraphrase a quote from Billy boy's book,they did "because they could".May they and those that believe the way they do all rot in hell.

Actually, you're about to get a 'righty' start with a "He was killed because...."

He was killed because our administration doesn't appear to have the spine to do what is needed to show these bastards that their actions will have consequences. At worst, they'll be offered political positions in the Iraqi government.

I'm NOT saying we go carpet bombing, and I loathe civilian casualties as much as the next guy, but we need to do heavy, highly visible, strikes wherever we think these assholes are. Under the table negotiations or "sooper secret" missions don't get the word out that America means business.

Sorry michele, but Bush sold us this war on a lie. Not WMD's, not connections, he lied that he and his administration had the resolve and will to fight this battle.

we all knew this was coming. but...does anyone else get the feeling that the blogosphere isn't making as big a deal out of this?

Noone, I've got 8 hits in my RSS aggrigator so far. The news just broke. On Newsmap, it's the 2nd biggest news story which means it's big.

yeah, i'm starting to see it on some american sites but the iraqi sites hardly mentioned the kidnapping. maybe they're just busy....

I never mentioned anything about P. Johnson on my blog, doesn't mean I didn't care.

Don't take silence on an event as an automatic approval.

yeah, i know. :sigh: well, at least it's over for mr. kim. i hope we're not already getting used to this.

He was killed. It is sad and tragic but are these contractors over there not away of the risks they face? The fact he had 3 degrees does not add or take away from the saddess since all of the victims so far each had the same right to life.

One dies and we keep on going. Five dies and we keep on going. What other options are there?

With apologies to Michele and her worrisome nature but...

How easy would it be to take a school bus full of kids here in America? We know they are here. I'm getting alittle irritated that the American People aren't SCREAMING for some immediate and very direct action. Looks like South Korea is tucking tail and running. I want to see tanks rolling through the streets of whatever shanty town Mr. Kim was snatched. Tell the people to turn over the barbarians or we commence shooting. Level the D*mned shacks until we find them.

He was killed. It is sad and tragic but are these contractors over there not away of the risks they face? The fact he had 3 degrees does not add or take away from the saddess since all of the victims so far each had the same right to life.

Drew, I was just trying to give a little insight. We knew a lot about Paul Johnson and Nick Berg. Because Mr. Kim was from North Korea, we did not have as much information about his personal life. I just wanted people to recognize the loss of humanity.

There is a culture that needs destroying, and it isn't ours.

These hostage takers are pirates; they have no legitimate voice, no civilized purpose, no reason to be tolerated.

It should be the world' mission to find them and blot them out of history.

Oh foo to you dittoheads. This guy was a MERCANARY working for a DEFENSE CORPORATION. I won't shed any tears.

As Michael Moore and Chomsky show, the blame is on US imperialism and capitalism.

It appears that the pro-Sharon neoconservative cabal is solid evidence of the flagrant lies promulgated by the political donor class. It is not heartening that the Pax Americana of the future belies justifications given by the world's leading apologists for the result of a pre-fascist atmosphere in America. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the deal between the Department of Defense and Halliburton unit Kellogg, Brown & Root leads our attention to the slaughter of thousands of children by Air Force cluster bombs. Let us never forget that Donald Rumsfeld's worldview brings forth an act of international violence that exceeds even those of the "liberal" Bill Clinton.

because these jihadis have no idea how mean Koreans can be when they want to...

I hope that Wayne is wrong about them tucking tails and running.

Kozfan, that is as laughable as it is stupid. Moore and Chomsky don't show us the facts, they show their version of the truth despite the facts.

And to be honest, you're a complete pussy for not showing us who you really are or how to get in touch with you.

The value of extensive, live Arabic media coverage of Iraqi trials of Saddam and his henchmen, including video and testimony of their genocidal carnage, increases with each passing of these kidnap killings, and with each repeated Abu-Ghraib self-flagellation by American media.

Media can be an effective weapon of mass destruction for either side. So far, only the enemy recognizes it.

Drew, correction: it is not merely sad or tragic but an outrage.

Men obsessed with carnage and destruction, who would throw a black blanket of ignorance and superstition on all the civilized world's light and knowlege, who would have all submit and give up reason, mercy, compassion, justice, have succeeded today.

It matters very much WHO they killed. It was a civilized man. A man who valued knowlege and worked hard to get it. A man who was there to use that knowlege to build and create, to shine his light in the world. And they snuffed it out.

Kozfan,

Please tell me that was a satiric entry...

I dunno, I'm going to have to go with he was killed because his captors were murderous psychopaths. But that's just me.

kozfan,

ROFL, that was the best impression of a classic moonbat lefty so out of touch with reality that he thinks what spews out of Chomsky's and Moore's mouth actually makes sense. Thanks for that small bit of humor to take just a little bit of a edge out of my anger and sorrow.

'My leftie readers may now commence with the "He was killed because......" cliches'

well I'm not a lefty but the reason they do this is because they are allowed to, by fellow Muslims who ignore or dismiss it, by the left who blame the right and by the right who just won't go far enough to stop it.

What? Escalate a situation before an election? Why, that would suggest that Bush cares about more than his own political ass.

This lefty says: he was killed because those bastards get a lot of action for a simple act of butchery. I haven't heard our government's argument for South Korea to stay in Iraq, but I can't imagine what we are telling them: "Buck up, Seoul. Things aren't so bad", "Don't worry, Iraqi prosperity is just around the corner", or "Trust us, have we ever led you astray?"

Thanks for the help, South Korea. It was nice having you in our coalition. Say hi to Spain and El Salvador if you see them.

Kozfan's rant sounds very similar to this:

Blah blah right-wing Rumsfeld warmonger chickenhawk evil Bushies Wolwowitz and his neocon cabal for oiloiloiloiloiloil blah blah ignorant stupid bloodthirsty morons, the real axis of evil on a ranch in Crawford and blah blah blah no WMD he lied, Bushitler lied, people died died died tie-dyed peace peace peace down with the Zionists! peace peace Kyoto! they hate us they hate us they hate us and what can we do and root causes and root causes and blowback and Plame and Plame and Chalabi Plame Wilson blah blah blah unilateral multinational Halliburton Enronism crony capitalism and it's all about oiloiloiloil blah blah blah, cowboyish disregard for allies, for the wishes of the world community who rise up against us, the terrorist threat is overblown and anyway, it's all our fault because we gave Saddam his weapons to begin with, photo of Rummy and Hussein, but make no mistake, he no longer has those weapons because inspections worked, containment worked, and blah blah blah Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan handle it, Roy, handle it handle it, Caspian pipeline oiloiloiloil blah blah blah show me the stockpiles, anthrax CIA plant Richard Clarke said so and we believe him because and unless unless unless Abu Ghraib Abu Ghraib Abu Ghraib, square-jawed cocksucking military jarhead torturing fucks, bring home our troops! We care about the troops! We support the troops and don't you question our patriotism our love for this fucking filthy crass consumerist bullying country of redneck dolts and biblethumping bourgeois suburbanites with their SUVs and where are the CAFE standards fight the real terror, eco-terror, Israel, the US, imperialist colonialist racist homophobic hegemonic and blah blah blah blah blah because dissent is patriotism and fighting against your country is really fighting for your country and our dissent keeps the nation strong and we're brave and heroic and up is down and black is white and oiloiloiloiloiloiloiloil blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.™

Instant Leftie Boilerplate, indeed.

Kozfan:
Christopher Hitchens has an interesting take on Michael Moore's truthfulness. I dare you to finish it.

My understanding is that South Korea is going ahead with it's troop build up. That's hardly backing down.

We need trials and public executions of extremists soon. June 30 will mark a turning point, believe me.--s

J Scott -

I hope you are right! I'm hearing now that South Korea has NOT said they are pulling out...only that they are urging their civilians to leave.

I hope this new Iraqi "regime" will take a harsher stand that we are able to.

I sincerely hope that S.Korea doesn't pull a Spain and run away. But I doubt they will. Koreans have been through a lot, and they like a good fight. Spain and the rest of cowardly Europe could learn a lot from this.

RG

Boy did they screw up!

These murderers have really screwed up this time. They kill a S. Korean? I am married to a native Korean and lived there for two years in the military. I can speak with some authority regarding the Korean military. To put it plainly, they are ruthless! They could care less about "Queensbury Rules." When the 3000 Korean troops arrive, lets send them to Sadr City first. When they are done there, to Najaf and Fullujah. However, don't ask questions or allow the media into areas they occupy. Just leave em alone. This problem would be solved in no time flat. Oh Yeah. Koreans are vengefull and hold grudges. Perfect character traits for this mission.

As sad as this cruelty is, and to me, it is a tragedy, these violent actions will only increase in number as we march closer towards the June 30th handover date.

Cryptomaniac: Definately right on that one, turn em loose and watch em civilize the place. Don't worry about the media.. the ROK Marines can deal with them.......

Crypto - Right on. I doubt that this action will lead to a larger S. Korean military presence in Iraq, but you really, really don't want to piss off a ROK trooper.

My uncle was a combat engineer platoon leader in Vietnam. He told me a story about the ROKs that you might find interesting. My uncle was in a convoy that was carrying several mimiguns, to be used in helicopters, I believe. As they were moving along, a shot rang out from the treline and a ROK trooper fell over dead. Apparently, the ROKs had a standing rule in 'Nam regarding snipers. For every ROK soldier shot dead by sniper, they had to find at least 5 of the enemy and kill them before they could return to friendly lines.

So the ROKs hop onto the trucks, and, despite the objections of my uncle and his engineer platoon, they proceed to drop the canvas sides of the truck and empty the miniguns into the treeline (I suppose they must have been mounted on tripods for just such and occasion). Anyway, to make a long story short, the ROKs took a single casualty that day and virtually wiped out a platoon of VC.

I was also told that ROK soldiers would routinely get up at the wee hours of the morning, and practice Tae Kwon Do, full contact, for several hours before going out and performing their duties. Apparently, it really got them in the mood to fight.

None of you have any idea how to stop this.

Thanks for the corrections. I hope South Korea sends in some troops. We need all the help we can get.

Still, I question the plan. Sometimes I question the existence of a plan. But most of all, I feel awful about those poor people who get in the grasp of such murderous cowards. I hope someone finds them and takes them out.

Maybe we can bug Al-J'Queda. It's time to try something different.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT! The lefties really are using the boilerplate!

Kofzan:
Oh foo to you dittoheads. This guy was a MERCANARY working for a DEFENSE CORPORATION. I won't shed any tears.

As Michael Moore and Chomsky show, the blame is on US imperialism and capitalism.

It appears that the pro-Sharon neoconservative cabal is solid evidence of the flagrant lies promulgated by the political donor class. It is not heartening that the Pax Americana of the future belies justifications given by the world's leading apologists for the result of a pre-fascist atmosphere in America. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the deal between the Department of Defense and Halliburton unit Kellogg, Brown & Root leads our attention to the slaughter of thousands of children by Air Force cluster bombs. Let us never forget that Donald Rumsfeld's worldview brings forth an act of international violence that exceeds even those of the "liberal" Bill Clinton.
From "Boyd" at Celluloid-Wisdom:
Perhaps for the first time since the late 1940s, Americanism as an ideology is determined by capitalist interests which lead to the end of any possibility of social justice in a reactionary state. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Colin Powell's parade of lies brings about the result of a pre-fascist atmosphere in America. It appears that the pro-Sharon neoconservative cabal can be seen in the light of the apparent fabrications which lead to this calamity brought to us by a horrific onslaught, known as Shock and Awe. So far, the influence of Leo Strauss leads our attention to a McCarthyism which threatens everything we hold dear.
Looks like they at least found a random-number generator to mix it up a little.

http://www.spinline.net/cy/lefterator.pl

SarahW:

Any deaths associated with our involvement over there are both sad and tragic. Whether it is a contractor, military or just plain everyday people who are in the wrong place at the wrong time none of them deserve to die.

The contractors know the risks and most of them I would imagine are there to earn more to provide a better life for there families at home. That being said they also have to know that very bad things are happening right now and that everyday may be there last day. To that end its hard to be outraged at this point.

I don't care if your a lefty, righty, middle or otherwise. The people who are doing the killing are helping no-one's cause but their own. They care more about killing Americans and our partners in this then they do about helping Iraqies or the Middle East out. I think for one it may just be time to declare WW III and get this over with once and for all.

Even worse Ken...I think KOzfan was a satiric parody.

oh, damn. oh, crap. oh, all the other expletives I don't have the energy to use right now. Somehow, I hoped this guy would be found and rescued before he was killed.

The local news channel played the tape of the guy pleading for his life last night. It was simply horrifying. I just sat on the couch and wept, and I'm not the kind of person who cries easily.
(thank God I didn't see the actual beheading tapes, those would probably put me over the edge).

I hate the human race, for producing people who think beheading other humans, ostensibly to make a political point, is a good idea.

As much as I hate the thought of more killing and the excuses for retaliation and hatespeech and nattering it will give some - well, here in the South, sometimes the phrase "He needed killin'" is used as the punchline of a joke about a murder, but I think the terrorists and the kidnappers "need killin'".

Well Michele, from at least one "lefty" reader, you won't hear any excuses. These executions, starting with Mr. Berg, have really caused me to do a lot of soul-searching, and I can conceive of no positive cause that could be served by murdering these people. The only possible reason I can come up with is that they want to make sure everyone is so angry that we will slowly stop thinking rationally, and decide to just end it by going for total war. That way, moderates in the Arab world will never have a chance to destroy their cancerous presence, because everyone will be dead, and the "jihadis", they believe, will be in heaven with 72 fucking virgins. Those goddam asshole motherfuckers. I fucking hate them. I have tried and tried to figure out why they would do things like this, but I give up. As bad as our government can be, as legitimate as many of the criticisms they use to justify their murder, they are worse. They must be destroyed. I just hope we can figure out a way to do it without continuing to kill innocent civilians. Fuck those murdering bastards. I hate them to the deepest core of my being.

After reading all these bullshit comments, all I have to say is, GOD help us all!

Before 9/11 I was a leftist. But the more barbaric the islamics behave, the farther from the left I tend to move.
The left has absolutely no idea how to deal with this threat, and simply pretend it doesn't exist. I can't pretend any longer.

You know, screw this "leftist/rightist" bullshit. I'm a forwardist. Who's with me?--s

And what exactly is a "forwardist?"

terrorISM! ISM ISM ISM!!

Terror: an overwhelming feeling of fear and anxiety

TerrorISM: the unlawful use of force against persons or property to intimidate or coerce

What bullshit comments, Cathy? You mean the ones generated by the lefterator?

And to whoever posted that lefterator, Thank You! That's perfect.

These terrorists always pick the defenseless to murder. And, they always wear masks. C-O-W-A-R-D-S!!!!!!! Once the Soth Korean troops get to Iraq, they'll be getting some payback that won't be in the news.

Read kozfan's screed fast. It has all the aspects of a chant. It is the chant of the leftist True Believer. I bet he can get the whole content of that post past his lips in less than 15 seconds.

Is any body getting the feeling that there are going to be a lot of birth certificates cancelled in the next few years? And the won't all belong to guys with funny names. I was always taught to secure the rear areas so that the threat axis was clear. Turn your belly buttons in people, don't make us come after them.

Mark my words, it will come to this. We can't afford to have the enemy and enemy supporters inside the gates. The trees will bear strange fruit.

I swear to God, if I ever got my hands on these savage bastards, I would cart them off to a military jail and literally put underpants on their murderous bastard heads, until they were completely fucking embarrassed.

Notice that Kozfan didn't leave an address or URL to further the discussion. Must have been somebody trying to be funny.

Too bad, I was gonna light somebody up.

I love the ROK.

I want to know what did Kozfan say? HAH! That is the bullshit or babble I was refering to, Ken.

Okay it is 'Kofzan'. Excuse my spelling. But who the hell cares.

Woah, iowahawk -- dude, harsh. I mean, we don't want to be Like The Terrorists™, now do we? Take that chill pill! Close your eyes and think of the happy place...

Mine is full of the severed heads of terrorists. Mmmm... serenity...

I swear to God, if I ever got my hands on these savage bastards, I would cart them off to a military jail and literally put underpants on their murderous bastard heads, until they were completely fucking embarrassed.

Iowahawk,

You are Hitler.

There, I said it. And I'd say it again if I had to.

I thought Kim was an evangelical Christian.

Kim Sun-il was a victim of the war on terror, a victim of the enemy we must defeat.

"Terror" is a tactic. "The War on Terror" makes as much sense as "The War on Flanking Attacks". How exactly do you propose defeating this enemy?

Here's an interesting question for you - would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

Oh, wait - I'm a leftie. Keep making shit up using computer scripts rather than deal with the question. After all, we wouldn't want you to strain yourselves thinking, would we?

That question again: would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

And a bonus for 10 points - how many of these people or these would still be alive if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

Whoops - more difficult questions. I'm sorry.

"Blah blah right-wing Rumsfeld warmonger chickenhawk evil Bushies Wolwowitz and his neocon cabal for oiloiloiloiloiloil blah blah ignorant stupid bloodthirsty morons, the real axis of evil on a ranch in Crawford and blah blah blah no WMD he lied, Bushitler lied, people died died died tie-dyed peace peace peace down with the Zionists! peace peace Kyoto! they hate us they hate us they hate us and what can we do and root causes and root causes and blowback and Plame and Plame and Chalabi Plame Wilson blah blah blah unilateral multinational Halliburton Enronism crony capitalism and it's all about oiloiloiloil" - is that better?

how many of these people or these would still be alive if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

How many people alive in Iraq today would be dead (tortured, mutilated, fed to a plastic shredder) if Saddam was still in power?

Or don't those people count?

I explain the concept of "the War on Terror" as I would how the "War on Piracy" was waged, or the "War on Poverty" if you are so inclined.

It isn't inexplicable.

How many people alive in Iraq today would be dead (tortured, mutilated, fed to a plastic shredder) if Saddam was still in power?

Good questions - it's been, what, a couple of months over a year since George Bush chose to attack, invade and occupy a country that had nothing to do with the Sept. 11th attacks.

As a result of that invasion, around 10,000 Iraqi civilians are dead (possibly more). Iraqi army casualties are difficult if not impossible to estimate. Given reports of up to 2,000 killed fighting for the airport, or 2-3,000 killed by one foray into Baghdad, I'd hazard an estimate of at least 20,000, and probably many more overall.

Conservatively, then, 30,000 dead in a year. Not to mention the climbing towards 1,000 American dead and well over 10,000 casualties.

According to Amnesty International, Saddam was murdering "scores" of prisoners a year. During a period of rebellion, another report mentions "hundreds" bbeing tortured.

Saddam was, of course, a thug, a bastard, and an evil man. And the comparison between him and George Bush is one you invoked.

The question again: would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

Oh, and that shredder story?

But keep on fuming.

The question again: would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

I explain the concept of "the War on Terror" as I would how the "War on Piracy" was waged, or the "War on Poverty" if you are so inclined.

I see. And, as we're finding out, The Bush Administration claims that constitutional rights should be suspended until "the War on Terror" is over.

Good thing that there's no such thing as piracy or poverty any more, right?

Oh, and that question again: Would Kim Sun-il (or Paul Johnson, or Nick Berg) be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

The question again: would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

So you are saying Bush MADE the terrorists behead Kim Sun-il?

Poor babies, so horribly oppressed by the awful Bushitler that they have to murder and behead a helpless man. (/sarcasm)

Odd, your question seems aimed at getting people to blame Bush for these murders and yet all it does is prove what a sick and childish little man you are. HTH. HAND.

Go on, repeat the question again. Maybe there's someone who doesn't quite realize what an ass you are and they need yet another example.

The question again: would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

Beats me. Maybe he would've been hit by a bus or something.

Saddam was, of course, a thug, a bastard, and an evil man. And the comparison between him and George Bush is one you invoked.

snort Yeah, that's right. Keep dreaming.

So it was George Bush who killed Kim, and not the guy with the knife, eh? Was it also Bush who gassed the Kurds, killed untold numbers of Iranians and Kuwaitis, and generally turned Iraq into a death house? OK. Gotcha.

But keep on fuming.

If anybody's "fuming", Phony, it's you. (You have to take the meds every day, pal. Or else you wind up posting inanities like the above.)

Next!

Oh, and here's another cute little communique from the people you claim are morally superior to the President of the United States:

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Islamist militants threatened Wednesday to assassinate Iraq (news - web sites)'s interim prime minister, just hours after they claimed the beheading of a South Korean hostage in the violent run-up to a U.S. handover to Iraqi rule.

"As for you, Allawi -- sorry, the democratically elected prime minister -- we have found for you a useful poison and a sure sword," said a taped voice, said to be that of Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, on an Islamist Web site.

"We will pursue our mission to the end," said the voice, referring to plans to kill Iyad Allawi.

I'm with Michelle. Kill these monsters faster, please. Thank you.

I would rather they put someones dirty, stinky underwear on my sons head, than chop it off. There is no comparison. The prisoners that had underwear on their head or was heaped up naked, may still go home someday. Mr. Kim never will, so get real. My son is in the military, so if the choice was underwear or chopping. I'd go with underwear.

Cathy, it wasn't just underwear. It was torture: electrocution, beatings, dog bites, terror, plus a few prisoners got bullets in them. "Underwear on the head" makes a great image to compare to a beheading, but it's not an accurate comparison to all that happened at Abu Ghraib.

I see that this morning, the Administration finally released the documents regarding the interrogation methods approved by the Justice Department. And they've also said they are going to heavily revise them to get rid of ambiguous directions or some such wording. In other words, they're embarrassed that they approved torture.

As they should be.

Did these people survive the electrocutions, the dog bites and the bullets? If they didn't then the 'torture' is wrong, if they did survive, I would wish that on my son instead of a beheading.

Of course. But torture is still wrong. And evil. And anyone who tries to defend it in any way is immoral. If torture is okay or not depending on whether the detained are prisoners of war or enemy combatants or common criminals or terror masterminds, then the line has been crossed from morality to immorality.

And plenty of Iraqis (and others) died while under our control in Abu Ghraib and elsewhere. If you wish to imply that because you have a son in the military, Abu Ghraib wasn't such a bad place, go ahead. But I see that as grasping at reasons to excuse the inexcusable acts of our side while pointing out the inexcusable acts of the other. Two wrongs, even if they aren't equal (and these really aren't), don't make your son any safer.

Thanks for his service. May he not be captured, no matter what may happen thereafter.

I wonder what the PVT. Maupin family would want for their son? I am sure it is for him to be home, but they cannot have that. I bet their prayers are that he just survives whatever they dish out. Just hang tough... If using the tactics you describe is what it takes for these bastards to talk so that we can better protect our men and women in uniform, and if this statement makes me an evil person then so be it. I don't care what you think of me until you walk in my shoes, you can not tell me how to feel. I don't want to see anyone tortured, but you had better believe the prisoners life didn't get any easier. We will find other ways. Guess what? This is war!

If being at war justifies any and everything, I will not support it. I wish you and yours well, and the same goes for everyone in similar situations. But I think that opening the door to torture would be a stupid act that would make this world less safe.

What will we say to the Chinese after the next crackdown on democracy activists, Tibetans, or Falun Gongers? What will we say to the Burmese? the Indonesians? the Egyptians? the Palestinians? Was Argentina in the 70s and 80s just ahead of its time? Torture is wrong. Period. End of story.

<rolls eyes at Jon, Phoenician, and bsti>

Michele, be careful what you wish for.

Yeah, my statement that "he was killed because those bastards get a lot of action for a simple act of butchery" is well worth eye-rolling. I guess only us lefties would dare point out that beheadings get a lot of play on news and blogs. Only us lefties would dare suggest that giving in to terrorists is something they'd desire. Gosh, I feel sub-human. I'll go wait under my bridge now. Sunlight hurts. Must find dark. Whatever.

Christ, if there's anything I hate more than preening moralists, it's preening, mock-earnest terror apologists masquerading as civil rights defenders who happen also to be preening moralists.

Sure, all torture is immoral. And humiliation is torture. Therefore, humiliation is torture is immoral. And the Islamafascists are humiliated by women exercising power, by the dominance of the west, by the pitiable, impoverished state of Islamic countries, by jogging shoes, by pork, by musical instruments, by "arrogant" oxygen and hydrogen... Therefore, the US (and the decadent west) is guilty of neverending torture. So we deserve what's coming to us.

Great. Thanks. Fuck off.

Women getting rights may humiliate the men of Islamist thinking, but it is not the same as torture. Humiliation isn't torture, torture is torture. Defeat would be humiliating for those jackasses, but it's not torture to do so, it's war. War has rules. Interrogation has rules. War can involve coating your enemies in jellied petroleum and igniting them until there is nothing left but teeth, but that's not an allowable interrogation technique. And it shouldn't be. War allows for the shooting of enemies, but interrogation doesn't. Maybe the distinction is too hard for those who insist that I'm a preening terrorist sympathizer or whatever, but it's pretty clear to me who the civilized force is in this fight. I just want it to stay that way, while others just want it to win. I want it to win, too. But not at all costs.

And to respond directly to Jeff G: sorry, I'm not gay. Email Sullivan with that request, but don't go bareback.

And all I want is for every soldier to survive this war and to come home and be with their families, and if that means interrogation tactics that are just short of death, then I say go for it. Whatever it takes to make them talk. Just don't kill them, because deadmen don't talk.

And to respond directly to Jeff G: sorry, I'm not gay. Email Sullivan with that request, but don't go bareback.

Homophobe! Homophobe homophobe homophobe!

want it to win, too. But not at all costs.

Too bad, you preening self-satisfied moralist. I've got a kid. You don't get to decide for me the conditions under which it's okay to win. The Jon Code of Ethics means nothing to me. Nada.

Humiliation isn't torture, torture is torture.

That's, er, uh...convenient. Can't argue with that. Torture is immoral. And torture is torture. Therefore, torture is immoral. Nice, concise, easy. Of course, it may beg the question just the teeeeeeeensiest little bit, but as I say, concise!

I've got four children. A daughter and three sons. If, when they grow up and fight this or the next war or wars I want the enemy to not use torture on captured soldiers. If we lose out on some information because we won't break bones to get it, I can live with that. It won't be easy at all times, but it will allow us to remain the good guys who can bring hope to oppressed people all over the world. I don't want the world to fear us, I want a healthy respect. Not the respect that comes from fear, but the respect that comes from being in the right and, when necessary, punishing those in the wrong.

And if it takes torture to win this war, we will lose the peace afterward. And be back there again in the future. We haven't had to invade Germany and Japan again, probably because we set up systems of laws and rights rather than oppressive regimes. And it didn't take torture to defeat the Emperor, Tojo, Hitler, and the Nazis. It took a fiece fucking war.

Just be thankful we didn't have 24/7 news coverage of WWII, featuring Peter Jennings and his fawning appreciation for down-to-the-second German train schedule efficiency (vs. the straw-chewing porchsitting of the typical southern racist).

And it didn't take torture to defeat the Emperor, Tojo, Hitler, and the Nazis. It took a fiece fucking war.
So, we should indiscriminately drop bombs and use nukes? Kill millions to save a few dozen from sleep deprivation? And you might want to check your assertion that torture wasn't used in WWII.

Jon, you're deluded. Terrorists do not give a shit about your definition of right. They want you and your children DEAD. Those who are fighting against us have no qualms about making that a reality.

We have several options. Bomb the shit out of everything to ensure we get them all or use another technique which will give us better information as to where they are. It's a war and someone is bound to get hurt. I knew that when I joined the Marines, but it was worth the risk. Those who fight us do so voluntarily so they know the risk. If they don't want to be killed or tortured, just walk over with your hands up and start giving details. If what they feel is so important is worth dying for, we're more than happy to help.

I want the same thing, but you don't realize that when it is close to home, it all takes on a different meaning. When this war in Iraq is over, and I pray to God that is soon. Then we can be the giving, caring Americans. We are doing that now. We are the good guys. We are building schools. We are getting utilities up and running. We are building and repairing hospitals... These people that are in these prisons aren't the best Iraqi citizen. I want what you want, but I am afraid the reality of this war is harsh... We dropped a bomb on Japan before we rebuilt their country. Do you know how many people we killed and left deformed after we dropped that bomb? Do you know how many innocent civilains were killed, during the softening up bombings before we stormed the beaches at Normandy? Do you know how we interrogated prisoners during WW 2? We will be the good guys after this is done, but right now is not the time. After we run the terrorist out of Iraq, then that will be the time for rebuilding, but first we have to win.... Jon, you sound like a nice guy, and I hope this is the war to end all wars, for your kids sake... I guess we have different views on how to win it.

Yes we used nukes in WWII. And it saved lives by taking lives, but it was an act of war. We didn't nuke those cities after they were captured.

I know we did some atrocious things to fight and win that (and every) war, but the people who mattered (the civilians) knew that when they saw our troops, they saw liberation and freedom and not tyranny and oppression. That made a big difference during the war, and it helped us get to the post-war era.

And now, to stop using Michele's bandwidth, I'll just sum up my position and be done with this: I hope the bad guys die, and I think we'll be better off in the long run if we remain good guys while we riddle them with bullets and/or turn their internal organs into jelly using percussive explosives. But if we capture the worthless pusballs, we must treat them like prisoners even if they are cockroaches in human form.

When Iraqis take over Abu Ghraib, they're gonna torture the hell out of the foreign arabs who are killing Iraqis. They're gonna torture them like they just invented torture, and like it's the greatest new thing they ever heard of. They're gonna torture those murderers because they want to win.

Will they be wrong? Some feebs who sit in safety and comfort say that torture is always wrong. That's their opinion, divorced from harsh realities of genocidal suicide bombings and ambush attacks on politicians and policemen.

The islamists who are trying to prevent Iraqis from achieving democracy are genocidal murderers. Look at what their comrades are doing in Darfur. Look at what the Taliban did in Afghanistan--massacring entire villages who belonged to the wrong tribe or followed the wrong form of Islam. That is what these islamists want to bring to Iraq.

Amen! Miquel... I am done also. Jon I guess we are just to hard asses, set in our ways. Peace! Ain't it great to live in a country where we can say the things that we have said, and live to speak another day. God Bless America, land that I love.

At last, agreement! Now let's find a field of flowers somewhere and skip, hand in hand, into the sunset. Michele will choose the soundtrack.

It seems to me you need a president to take away all the cameras and service men out of iraq and replace them with killers in prison to roam to land and give them a taste of violence then when the beg for the US to remove these misfits simply say they cant be rehabilated so we sent them where other violence can comingle. there out cry has to be delt a severe blow to make the towel head come to there sences excuse the misspelling and grammer but i tried mor than the presidents.

Oh no Jon, not agreement, just a truce. I don't agree with anything you have said. Truce!

Truce to the argument. Agreement to the fact that we love this country.

If you believe torture is the answer to the end of violence in Iraq your favorite color must be clear. I have been in Iraq as a private contractor for 1 year now (I'm fully aware of the danger I'm in), and the only sollution to the end of this madness can only be delivered by the examples that we set for this fledgling democracy. Only a fool could possibly believe that violence and torture will bring peace.

We are dealing with a population that has only known rulers driven by the desire to enhance there own power and monitary worth (versus the enhancement and quality of life for there own people), for thousands of years.

This country is filled with good hearted people who are wishing no more than to provide a good life for themselves and those they love.

So toss away your opinions wich are probably based completely in your in your need to type for shock value, versus your wish's to see another country enjoy the simple freedoms that most of you where granted at birth.

It will take time and it will be worth it. I just hope I'm am able to remain here long enough to see all the freinds I have made in this country see what we are trying to bring here come to them in full as we know it at home.

And I hope more than anything that you radical thinking fools who believe we can do this by smoking village's of innocent people so they will give up their vast knowledge of these terorist networks (wich 99.9% of the people know nothing about as they are as forien to them as they are to this country), never get an opportunity to voice your bullshit from a possition of power, as I truly believe would would sound very much like a Saddam soulution!!!!!!

Kim Sun-il was killed because terrorists favorite color is clear!!!!

"The question again: would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?"

So you are saying Bush MADE the terrorists behead Kim Sun-il?

Nope. I'm asking a simple question: would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

Which you haven't answered.

If using the tactics you describe is what it takes for these bastards to talk so that we can better protect our men and women in uniform, and if this statement makes me an evil person then so be it.

At least 90% of those bastards were, in fact, innocent.

God Bless America, land that I love.

Hmm. Cathy, assuming your country was bombed and then occupied by a foreign nation, would you be willing to take up arms (or build bombs) against the occupying troops?

Would those who did so be, ipso facto, terrorists?

Oh goodness, it's a puzzle! Like Jumble!

Yawn.

You people think that we are talking about your average Iraqi citizen. We in fact are talking about foreign fighting terrorist & Saddam loyalist. And may I ask how do you know that 90% of these prisoners were innocent? You know that is what they all say, "I didn't do it." To answer your question about how would I react to occupation and bombs. If I lived in Iraq under the rule of Saddam and his savage sons, I would help the liberators. That means if I saw someone dump a body, I would inform the Iraqi police. If I saw something supicious going on next door or down the street, I would inform the Iraqi police. No, I would not be building bombs to get rid of the occupiers. I would be doing my part as a responsible citizen, that would be to bring peace and stability to my country by not backing down... And the Korean, Mr. Kim, would still be alive if Mr. Bush had not invaded Iraq, but let us all remember, Mr. Kim went to Iraq of his own freewill. Mr. Kim was trying to help the people of Iraq, and a foreign fighting faction chopped his head off, not President Bush.

And may I ask how do you know that 90% of these prisoners were innocent?

See here:

"GENEVA - Intelligence officers of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq estimated that 70 percent to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake, the Red Cross said in a report that was disclosed Monday, and Red Cross observers witnessed U.S. officers mistreating Abu Ghraib prisoners by keeping them naked in total darkness in empty cells."

Nope. I'm asking a simple question: would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

Yep, it's the typical "simple question" method of slander. You want someone to say "no" to your "simple" question so you can blame Kim's death on Bush. Which actually does make it appear that you do think Bush made the terrorists kill Kim Sun-il. But then, it's all you really have: waving the bloody shirt, exploiting the dead, relying on emotional diatribes, etc.

Which you haven't answered.

...and you expect me to play your ghoulish little game. Sorry, no. Don't slip in the blood while feeding Kim's corpse into your agit-prop machine.

It would also be nice if you learned how to properly attribute other people's quotes, ghoul-boy.

Let us imagine that a woolly-headed liberal is elected Governer of some State, perhaps Virginia, perhaps California - it doesn't really matter.

Let us imagine that said Governer decides to "rehabilitate prisoners within the community" by releasing a lot of longer term convicts out on parole. This decision is met by howls of protest, and predictions by conservatives and experts alike that these people are not reformed and the decision will lead to more crime - murder, rape, and whatever. The Governer ignores the protests, claims teh conservatives are fools for even questioning his wisdom, and chooses to release the convicts.

One of those convicts, a white supremicist, rapes and murders an 11 year old black girl.

You, a sane and sensible conservative, stumble on a forum of woolly headed liberals bleating about how awful the tragedy was and how dreadful white supremicists are. You decide to ask the very simple and obvious question:

"Would the little girl be dead now if the Governer hadn't chosen to release the prisoners?"

The liberals, bleating herd of irrational sentimentalists that they are, respond in various ways:
- One asks if you're claiming the Governer made the convict rape the little girl.
- One says that the little girl might have been hit by a bus or something.
- One suggests you're claiming the convict is morally superior to the Governer.
- One suggests you're claiming that the Governer is a white supremicist.
- And one claims the girl was killed because the favorite color of white supremicists is blue. And adds four exclamation marks to this comment.

You, being a sane and sensible conservative are amused by these responses. It just demonstrates how foolish these woolly headed liberals are, and to what lengths they'd go to just to avoid addressing the issue. You can irritate the hell out of them simply by asking that same question thay're too deluded to address squarely: "Would the little girl be dead now if the Governer hadn't chosen to release the prisoners?"

Which brings us back again to my question:

Would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

You want someone to say "no" to your "simple" question so you can blame Kim's death on Bush. Which actually does make it appear that you do think Bush made the terrorists kill Kim Sun-il. But then, it's all you really have: waving the bloody shirt, exploiting the dead, relying on emotional diatribes, etc.

"You want someone to say "no" to your "simple" question so you can blame the little girl's death on the Governer. Which actually does make it appear that you do think the Governer made that convict rape and murder the little girl. But then, it's all you really have: waving the bloody shirt, exploiting the dead, relying on emotional diatribes, etc."

You're an idiot, Phony. A smug, self-satisfied, terrorist-apologist idiot.

People like you are rarely treated well by history.

Now go play in traffic.

Phoenician in a time of Romans, what the hell kind of name is that, you are over the edge. I can picture your Howard Dean screams as you sit at your computer and type this babble. Yeeeehaaaaaa! Have a great night.

Kim Sun-il was a victim of the war on terror, a victim of the enemy we must defeat. Faster, please.

My leftie readers may now commence with the..

why should we? you put it perfectly.

Interesting.

Cathy, RMc - why is it you two are unable to even face the question, preferring ad hominem instead? You'll notice I was happy to supply answers to Cathy when requested - what are you two so afraid of?

It's simple enough:

Would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

You want someone to say "no" to your "simple" question so you can blame Kim's death on Bush.

Patrick, why should it matter what I want or what you think I want? The question is a factual one, simply answered - either yes, no, probably yes, probably no. It's not a question of opinion or taste. It doesn't matter what I think. It doesn't matter what you think.

Why exactly should my motivations matter one iota when it comes to a factual question? Why are you unable to bring yourself to answer it and instead resort to attacking my motivations? What exactly are you afraid of dealing with in answering a factual question?

Would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

I am a "lefty" - but you won't hear apologist crap or blame the good ol USA for the savage and brutal acts of a corrupt group of scum arguments from me. I love our country, our system, and everything our founding fathers intended for this country. These terrorists and haters of freedom need to be eliminated as fast as possible. Now does this mean the Bush and his lying cronies should be given free reign - no, it is time for a change and a new approach RIGHT NOW.

BUSH/Cheney/Rumsfled/Ashcroft's complete and total disregard for all the principals that our country is based on have caused a stain on our national honor. A fresh wind from the left is blowing, resumes are being polished in Washington, and new leadership will be taking over, not a moment too soon.

Would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

Oh, give me a break. Would Patsy Cline be alive today if the Wright Brothers hadn’t given up the bicycle business? Is Bush a proto fascist? Is a drop of water a proto iceberg? Am I a proto easter bunny?

If we hadn’t invaded Iraq would thousands or just hundreds of Iraqis have been killed by Saddam? If a butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil, will Dick Cheney fart after his steak with extra onions?

Is time linear, circular or is it a shaped like a donut? Cream filled or jelly? If we hadn’t invaded Iraq, would 9/11 ever have happened?

"Would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?"

Oh, give me a break. Would Patsy Cline be alive today if the Wright Brothers hadn’t given up the bicycle business? Is Bush a proto fascist? Is a drop of water a proto iceberg? Am I a proto easter bunny?

The differences between these questions and mine include the fact that George Bush chose to attack Iraq, that there were warnings that occupying Iraq would lead to instability and increased terrorist attacks, and that such deaths as Kim Sun-il's were foreseeable before Bush made his decision.

I thought it was a conservative value to hold people accountable for the foreseeable consequences of their choices. Hell, most liberals I know hold that same value.

I'm not absolving the terrorists; remember my analogy of the murderous convict and the Governer who let him out?

Would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

Oh my God...end this.

Phonecian. The answer to your question is no. Probably not.

And that means? Tell me it's something more than the bullshit of your last post. And please explain this unintelligible drivel.

The differences between these questions and mine include the fact that George Bush chose to attack Iraq, that there were warnings that occupying Iraq would lead to instability and increased terrorist attacks, and that such deaths as Kim Sun-il's were foreseeable before Bush made his decision.

Would Kim Sun-il be dead now if George Bush hadn't chosen to attack Iraq?

The answer to your question is obviously, No!

But, that said Mr. Kim Sun-Il is what is known as collateral damage. I know that is harsh but we are at war. I feel for Mr. Sun-il's family. However, please keep in mind he was there of his own free will.

I don't like to lump a group of people together but YOU liberals are out of control. You actually make me sick with your twisted way of looking at things.

Where were you on 9/11? Probably not in New York. The reason I say that, is if you saw what I saw on that day you would probably praise our great president, George Bush for taking the fight to the terrorists.

Dave in Texas, you write: Phonecian. The answer to your question is no. Probably not.

Aha! So you admit that Kim Sun-il would still be alive today had George Bush not invaded and occupied Iraq. Therefore, we can conclude that had George Bush not chosen to invade and occupy Iraq, Kim Sun-il would probably still be alive.

There's just no refuting that, conservodummies.

And so I rest my case.

Phoenician in a time of Romans - what difference does the word CHOSE make? If a butterfly CHOSE to flap its wings, would the outcome be different than if it was an involuntary reaction?

The Wright brothers CHOSE to invent the airplane. If they hadn't chosen to invent the airplane, Pasty Cline, Ritchie Valens and the Big Bopper might still be with us. Or they might have all died of various causes. Buddy Holly might still be with us. Then the music wouldn't have died.

Did the Wright brothers choose to cause those deaths? It was forseeable the airplanes would cause many deaths, and they did.

If we hadn't invaded Iraq, who knows what would have happened? Thousands of Iraqis would have been killed by Saddam. That was another very probable foreseeable outcome. These are probable but never definite. These assumptions don't prove that war is good or that peace is bad.

There are an infinte number of outcomes that can result from any event. Your question is only proof of one thing - the statement that 'there are no dumb questions' is wrong.

Here is another twisted one.

The things in mid-east is going well according to the plan. Many people are loughing all the way to the bank. While rest of us discussing about justice, there are people making tons, I mean tons of money. War is traditionary a money making machine and Bush family has been the leader of the war trader since GW's great-grampa. So stop talking about patoriorism and start attacking a person selling our precious lives to get rich.

The posting of 12.42 was not mine, of course.

The answer to your question is obviously, No!

Thank you.

But, that said Mr. Kim Sun-Il is what is known as collateral damage. I know that is harsh but we are at war. I feel for Mr. Sun-il's family. However, please keep in mind he was there of his own free will.

What a remarkably hard headed and realistic attitude you have when it come time to excuse people killed because of the actions of your country.

Compare it with, for example, this or this, the comments where all Muslims are tarred by the actions of the terrorists, where people fantasize about inflicting so much damage on the towns where Kim, Berg or Johnson were kidnapped that the populace gives up the terrorists, where people talk about using nuclear weapons.

Isn't it amazing how much easier it is to excuse death and suffering when it is done in the name of your good cause?

And all I want is for every soldier to survive this war and to come home and be with their families, and if that means interrogation tactics that are just short of death, then I say go for it. Whatever it takes to make them talk. Just don't kill them, because deadmen don't talk.

Any comment on this, Cathy?

"Graham, a veteran of the House Judiciary Clinton impeachment hearings in 1998, had his sound bites honed to a sharp, quotable edge: “I want to prepare the public. The worst is yet to come in terms of disturbing events.”

"A few minutes later, Graham told a press conference, “We’re talking about rape and murder here, we’re not just talking abut giving people a humiliating experience, we’re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.

or this?

"But get ready. It is going to get much worse. The graphic videos and photographs that have so far been shown only to Congress are, I have been persuaded by someone who has seen them, not likely to remain secret for very long. And, if you wonder why formerly gung-ho rightist congressmen like James Inhofe ("I'm outraged more by the outrage") have gone so quiet, it is because they have seen the stuff and you have not. There will probably be a slight difficulty about showing these scenes in prime time, but they will emerge, never fear. We may have to start using blunt words like murder and rape to describe what we see."

The rumourmill has it that we're talking sexual abuse or rape of children in front of their mothers - the vast majority of which have not done anything.

Is that what you're condoning?

It's time to bring these comments to a close. Thanks all for your thoughts and opinions, but I think I've been quite generous by letting this go on as long as it has.