A Small Victory

i blame bush AND his religion. he and HIS religion have a bloodlust. A BLOODLUST WHICH HAS BEEN HANDED DOWN FROM FATHER TO SON... the resulting butchering of christianity is handed down from mother to daughter and murder and justified bararism goes on and on.

it's assholes like you who create this madness. your racism, your hatred...
Mr. Johnson's death was unacceptable, was barbaric, but your blind hatred... even more so...

hatred begets hatred...

We will hear the assholes who say that we caused this. We have to be ready to hear from them, because they'll be there.

Then we have to remind everybody what it is we're facing.

Exactly, Michele.

Me, I'm rapidly approaching apathy towards the lives of everyone in the middle east save Israel. I see another beheading, and my thought is "You want war? We'll GIVE you war."

And "bleedingheartliberal," shut up. I'm personally not in the mood for it.

bleedingheartliberal,

Fuck you.

Welcome to some more hatred - mine for you. The cycle continues, I suppose.

Sorry to sully this thread with a non-response. Maybe I should be banned. I can't even remain calm enough to formulate an intelligent response. Sorry.

YES.

Al Qaeda wants to hurt us, and they have found another way to do it using our own mistakes against us.

Abu Ghraib is their touchstone, the thing they can use to make us believe that every American death is payment for it. When in fact, they flew planes into our buildings and blew a hole in a US ship and countless other things long before Abu Ghraib, and simply because they hate us and what we stand for.

"What do we do? How do we stop this? Right now, in my anger, I want to go to war with the entire Middle East, save Israel. I want to annihilate them"

That exactly the reaction they want from every American.

We can shout from the rooftops, but sadly, I don't think it's going to happen; Americans don't pay attention to deaths unless it happens on American soil. Then they are outraged!

What have I been saying?
I'm not such a biggot now huh.
You are either part of the problem or the solution.
In jmy previous comments I said I would put them in a near vegatative state and send them home.
I don't care about soddomy with a light. I can be a lot more creative than that.

Geez I'm so mad my typing is worse then ever.

Do not be despondent. Do be very angry.
They are the animals. Or at least the
lowest form of humanity.

What we do is persevere. We continue to
do what we know is right. Unfortunately
for all of us, there is a time for
killing. We must do it judiciously, and
as a last resort. That seperates us from
them.

It is important not just to not blame
America. You must support her when she
is right. You must opose her detracters
when they are wrong.

Choose your side, voice your opinions,
and ignore the critics.

And remember, we are not helpless.
We have each other.

Don't these people get it? We COULD wipe out the entire region, but we don't. Why? Because we Christians (and atheists and agnostics and Jews and Moderate Muslims and Scientologists, etc.) with "bloodlust" don't act immediate on our visceral feelings. We voice it, but our cooler heads prevail. Maybe the Middle East could learn from us?

Rage, but don't despair. Although you'd never know it from the defeatist drone of the media, America proper has more than enough will and ability to win this war. And, not just because of who we are but also because we want to win, our men are going to do it without leveling the Middle East even at the risk of their own lives.

As always, Bill Whittle is a good antidote for despair. What he said about Fallujah applies here:

"We ran from Fallujah, we hear; those murdering bastards are laughing at us. We’re not tough enough to win. Uh, not quite. Hundreds of those murdering bastards are dead. They are not laughing at anything.

The Fallujah bridge pissed off a lot of Americans. It really made us see red. Would we be disgusted enough to walk away, or furious enough to go in and indiscriminately slaughter thousands? The architects of that atrocity must have thought they nailed that perfect tic-tac-toe move: we go one way, they win on the other. Quoth Den Beste: the object of Terrorism is to provoke an overwhelming response. And the response to that response is the political and strategic goal of the terrorist.

Al Sadr, you less than magnificent bastard! We read your book!

Blah, blah…war is lost…blah blah blah... disaster, wreck and ruin… Only it turns out that the United States military may have produced a few life-long professionals who actually hold victory more precious than crowing loud. Many of us value reason over emotion, and reality over wishful thinking. Well, we did not level Fallujah, and we did not do it because those bodies on that bridge were bait, pure and simple. We didn’t take the bait. Or, I should say, our military didn’t take the bait; I took it, hook line and sinker. I wanted to level the goddam city and then walk away and let them kill each other. Now, as Al Sadr’s support evaporates; as his militia thugs are being hunted and killed by shadowy Iraqi ghost armies and extremely corporeal Marines; as his fellow Mullahs condemn him; as Iraqi demonstrations against him and all that poison and ruin he represents continue to rise; as his headquarters are destroyed, his most vicious ‘soldiers’ killed in their own backyards, playing defense in an urban environment by Marines whose skill and tactics stagger credulity for their expertise and success – now, we must ask ourselves: did you want to feel good or did you want to win?

I want to win. I was an idiot for taking that bait. And I thank God daily that America makes better, smarter people than me."

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000099.html

I'm of the same mindset as you michele. It's getting harder and harder to fight that annihilate the whole area feeling.

I suppose this is a silly question, as it would probably be classified, but do we have an equivalent to that Mossad group of assassins that wiped out almost all of the terrorists involved in the Munich Olympics massacre? Of course secretive groups like that exist in the CIA and our military, but are they actively taking these bastards out??

Individuals like BleedingHeart up there are like a gut wound in this nation. Yeah, its our fault in the same way it is the fault of every victim who is unwilling to defend themselves as aggressively as possible. The attacker is still at fault, and it is THEIR hatred which is the most repugnant, but who here feels anything beyond basic pity for a sheep who refuses to fight back against it's slaughter? We have to start putting our countrymen first. Helping the Iraqis is fine and dandy, but next time there is an aggressive attack against us we need to ramp up the bodycount and damned be anyone between us and our enemies.

I swear I do not care about Abu Ghraib anymore. Who cares if some terrorist scum are humiliated? Actually, I would prefer it if they were just killed, and the ground they lived on salted.

Part of the rage is that we know that the power exists to remove the region. It could be a slowly cooling plate of radioactive glass in less time that it takes to get through a McDonalds drive thru.

There is no acknowledgement from the enemy that they realize this. They are so certain that we'll eventually hate ourselves that they feel immune to the most terrible weapon ever devised.

The rage comes from the possibility that they're right, as I listen to radio DJ's repeat the falsehoods spewed by the press and whine about how tired they are of hearing about Iraq. They don't know we're at war, and they're trying to convince everyone else.

The fact that they beheaded him speaks volumes about the depraved nature of their twisted religion. As civilized Christians, at least we have the decency to beat them to death during interrogation.

I agree with your outrage and also feel despondent. The people who did this are Barbarians.

But, let me politely disagree with some of the conclusions here. The war in Iraq, in its inception, had little to do in the short-term with fighting AQ. If we wanted to deal directly and swiftly with a state that sponsored AQ, we might have chosen to invade Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, or Saudi Arabia. We chose not to for a variety of reasons that are easy enough to surmise.

However, since we've invaded Iraq, the floodgates have opened, not only to AQ, but Iranian militants. Don't be surprised when, in a few months, we end up fighting Iran on Iraqi soil.

We will win the GWOT in either twenty years or four hours. For now we are still pursuing the twenty year approach.

Andy McCarthy says it well on The Corner:

Every time you parade the Abu Ghraib photos, every time you parrot the patently ridiculous pretension by these repulsive murderers that decapitations are motivated by what those photos depict [...] you are guaranteeing that there will be more Daniel Pearls, Nick Bergs and, now, Paul Johnsons. You are telling these monsters that they get a free ride: They get to kill, which they would do anyway, and they get to have you tell the world that the proximate cause of the killing is the U.S. government rather than militant Islam. Scorecard: al Qaeda - win, win; America: lose, lose; Americans: die, die.

BH is full of it, Christ wasn't a soldier, Mohammed was. Islam was spread by the sword deliberately. 1500 years.

That's bloodlust.

Roxanne, if you have DISH, start watching 9410 ME news roundup. Iran knew last year it was on the hit list. And with the stellar negotiating tactics of our European "allies" we're probably going into it sooner than we hoped. That and the kids can't get their act together. No organization.

Every time this happens, I really think we harden on Abu G. Do I really care?

SA has beheading platforms. This is what they do.

Here's a tiny sliver of good news: three of these thugs, including the top Saudi in al Qaeda (Abdulaziz al-Moqrin), won't be killing anyone else anytime soon. I guess their allahu wasn't as akbar as they thought.

Gee, I thought the Iraq war was supposed to REDUCE terrorism.

Instead it has incited MORE of it. Berg and Johnson and over 800 American soldiers and thousands of iraqis would be alive today if it weren't for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, a DIVERSION from the WOT.

Now we have morons who think we should just kill all the Arabs, preferably with those nukes we have just sitting around not doing anything useful. Hell we taxpayers paid for them, why not use them?

Can any of you mouth-breathers explain to me, in rational terms, how mass murder and genocide would make us different from terrorists?

Is it because our imaginary friend in the sky is better than their imaginary friend in the sky?

I thought we were there to LIBERATE them, not ANNIHILATE them.

those of you who talk about killing all the Arabs, are sick.

If you are truly so full of bloodlust, put your money where your mouth is. Go down to the Army recruiting office and sign up. They need all the bodies they can get these days.

You people are fucking morons.

The problem is not the viewing of the photos; it is the torture.

It should not have been done. Nearly all of those who were tortured, were innocent. They were rounded up by those with the same mentality as you have - "one sand-nigger is as good as another, they all look alike to me!"

How do you think Arabs feel when they see this foreign occupier - which they suspect of coming in to steal their oil as has been done so many times in the past by Westerners - come in and humiliate their women and torture their men and kill innocents? Without really much improvement in their lives?

It pisses them off. The average Arab on the street may not have a blog, but they do get together and talk on the street corner and at the market. You know what they say?

The same shit you gibbering morons are saying. "Let's kill them all!"

When we went into Iraq, we chose to punch our fist into a hornet's nest. Why the fuck are you surprised that it gets nasty down there? It should be expected that things like this will happen.

You chickenhawks wanted your war, now you got it. Why aren't you happy? Is your shiny new toy not so much fun anymore?

What else do you expect? You support the worst terrorist country in the world, Israel, then you invade and slaughter people who never did anything to you in addition to torturing them. As you sow, so shall you reap.

Thanks, renato, for a textbook example of everything that's wrong with the anti-war side.

"Mouthbreaters." Check.

Chickenhawk argument. Check.

Snide religious insults. Check.

Untrue generalizations. Check.

Personally, I'm not in the mood today to play with you. Shove a power drill up your ass and turn it on for all I care. And nuke the middle east, for all I care as well.

You too, Mike.

Fucking idiots. It's amazing; An American has had his head sawed off by terrorists, and twits like you STILL have to show up here and play troll. There's something deeply pathetic about you, Mike.

if the shoe fits, BB...

Renato
If we had not liberated Iraq, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis a year would be dead, and millions would still be tortured, raped, and starved.

American military have protected, defended and liberated more Muslims and Arabs and Iraqis than any country in the world.

You must have forgotten all the kidnappings, killings and bombings perpetuated upon the West by Middle Eastern Arabs over the past twenty-three years. You must have forgotten Saddam's place in the Middle East, he was seen as the Great White Horse who was going to take down the West.

We tried the "placate Islamic fascist and Saddam and the world will be a peaceful place" until 9/11, 2001, when Islamic fascist (from the Middle East, the land where Saddam resided) slammed airplanes into our buildings, killing thousands of innocent lives changed our minds.

So fuck off.

Yeah, fuck you, renato!

Shills like you don't seem to understand the Holy Crusade that our Dear Leader has undertaken: To bring Freedumb® and Dumbakracy® to the heathen infidels in ye land of ye White Mans' Burden.

Only 20-Megatons of nucular righteousness will ever convice those üntermenschen of just how badly we want to cure them of their savage ways.

That's why we're so sooperior to them ignorant savages!

Takes a big man to talk about nuking the Middle East, doesn't it? Or does it? Maybe all it takes is a chickenhawk who can't walk the walk, but sure knows how to shoot his mouth off.

I ask you again: Please explain to me, in rational terms, how nuking the Middle East would make us better than the terrorists.

Please explain to me why we were told over and over we were going to Iraq to liberate the Iraqis, and now you want to kill 'em all.

Please tell me how you will drive to work when the oil fields of the Middle East are useless because someone took your advice and nuked them, and now the oil is useless because it's radioactive.

Can you explain any of this?

Or does it just make you feel good to talk tough behind the safety of your monitor, in full confidence that you'll never have to back up your macho posturing with action?

I'm waiting...

Dear Syn:

Please don't explain to me how fortunate the Iraqis are to be liberated. Please go fly to Baghdad and go explain it to THEM.

Because they don't seem real grateful.

Yeah, fuck me Cthulu.

I'm too pissed off about these 'tards to snark at them. My bad.

if the shoe fits, BB...

That's IT? That's all you've got? "If the shoe fits?" Jeezus, I didn't know that I was dealing with such a master of wit as yourself.

I must confess, I'm disappointed in you. Not surprised, just disappointed.

I got a lot more but you're not answering, BB.

Must I restate my queries to you, a THIRD time?

Big Brother - why don't you address Renato's areguments rather than selected pieces of his rhetoric?

See, BB, you can't answer my questions. All you can do is wave your hands around and change the subject.

That's why, when it comes to these sticky foreign affairs, we hire DIPLOMATS to deal with these issues. Because they are complicated and there is almost never a simple answer to them.

You and the rest of the 'kill 'em all' crowd are perfect examples of why we don't hire ignorant reactionary yahoos who work at Wal-Mart to conduct our foreign affairs.

The War on Iraq is a perfect example of why war should be the last resort, not the first resort. It has clearly caused more problems than we had in the first place. We have traded one set of old problems, for a set of new problems. Many of them worse than the old ones.

All you need to know to prove that, is drive by a gasoline station. A big part of the reason why it's so expensive these days, is the INSTABILITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

Gee, I wonder how that happened. Must be Clinton's fault, eh?

I ask you again: Please explain to me, in rational terms, how nuking the Middle East would make us better than the terrorists.

Why bother? Like ANYTHING I or anyone else here says is going to make a bit of difference to you. You came in here spouting the usual crap: chickenhawks. Morons. Mouthbreathers. 'Tards.

Why should you listen to anything we have to say? Why should you care? And why should I try to rationally explain anything to you? Tell me, Renato. Spell it out for me.

I'm too pissed off about these 'tards to snark at them.

You're pissed? GOOD. Dance, puppet, dance. I'd be impressed if you'd show HALF the venom that you direct at us at the fuckers who cut off Paul Johnson's head. Just HALF.

I love playing with people like you. I knew that all I had to do is put a line about nuking the middle east in my post and you'd pop a blood vessel. Thanks for fulfilling my expectations perfectly.

I don't see any moral difference between dropping bombs from thirty thousand feet and beheading a bound prisoner. The latter may be messier and the former may require more technical skill, but, really, you're still playing at God the Murder King. And, frankly, while we're on the God topic, I don't care what religion a person practices as long as they don't show up on my doorstep to tell me how to live my life. Case in point: Iraq is Mohammed's doorstep. If you want Jesus's doorstep, go to the Deep South- or Utah. If you think Jesus wants us in Jerusalem, well, arm yourself and go. But don't take my fucking flag with you.

The problem with Iraq is the people so desperate to invade it were the same people who made Saddam what he was. And I think the common Iraqis know that.
One last thing...If you arm and support a brutal dictator in my neighborhood, drop bombs on my children for a decade, then invade under false pretenses, seize all natural resources, instill military law and then have the audacity to preach to me about freedom? I'm bound to do some head-cutting too.

Lousy dodge Big Brother. Far too transparent. Address his arguments.

patriotboy,

Because I don't care enough about him, you, Mike, or any of you to be bothered. As far as I'm concerned, you, renato, and the rest of you trolls can suck exhaust fumes.

Have a nice day, chuckles.

Lousy dodge Big Brother. Far too transparent. Address his arguments.

No.

Gee Renato,

I must be delusional.

I am sure Iraqis loved living under Saddam. That's why, after the fall of Baghdad, everywhere Iraqis went they stomped on his face with their feet.

That's why we saw 25 million Iraqis go out on the streets the day Baghdad fell to begin a massive uprising against the coalition forces.

The Iraqis loved Saddam so much they had to import radical Islamic terrorist organizations who wish to intentionally kill the Iraqi people.

That's why Iraqis absolutely refuse to acknowledge the new Iraqi government.

All signs of great respect towards their beloved fallen leader.

Sure.

The only thing stopping the Arab nations from wiping Isreal off the face of the planet was Saddam.

Sure.

Oh yeah, war should only be used as a last resort up until it is too late, then it is okay?

Sure.

By the way, Vietnam and the sixtes were finished over thirty years ago. Time to get off the magic bus you are riding because you've run out of gas.

Hey trick ...

And, frankly, while we're on the God topic, I don't care what religion a person practices as long as they don't show up on my doorstep to tell me how to live my life

Guess what??? That is EXACTLY what these radical Islamic monsters want to do. And you know what else? If you refuse to go along with them, convert to Islam, become as fanatical as them and embrace Sharia law ... They. Want. You. Dead.

That is the WHOLE point behind this ... wake the hell up while you still can!

Trick

I do not think that waiting for over twelve years, dealing with endless UN resolutions and no-fly zones represents anything close to a desparate wish to invade.

Why the religious implications when Saddam was a noted secularists?

I deeply appreciate the solid logic behind this rational conversation. On one hand, people are saying "If we had not liberated Iraq, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis a year would be dead, and millions would still be tortured, raped, and starved."

But in the same breath we are saying "nuke 'em all, dirty A-Rabs"

Wait a minute, I'm confused...What are we supposed to think again???

Michelle writes:"I blame people who have taken a religion and distorted, warped and molded it to fit their own homicidal, ugly needs."

How do we know that? What if the religion itself, what if Islam itself, is -- really is -- at bottom a homocidal and ugly and evil religion?

I know it is popular to make the distinction that Michelle makes. It seems to be the standard disclaimer.

And it may well be true.

But what if it is not?

lissakay,

I am awake. The problem is that I was in awake in the Eighties too. That was when our press used to praise the "brave holy warriors, the mujadeen of Afghanistan". I remember reading how ferocious those guys were, how they'd march all day and fight all night on a handful of rice and some dried figs. The reports used to praise the selfless Saudis that had arrived to fight the heathen Ruskis too. They were Muslim fanatics but they were alright with us- in fact, I used to see U.S. congressman posing in photos with them all the time.

They used to be our brothers-in-arms, regardless of religion.

That said, do I want to go anywhere in the Mideast? A resounding no. Do I want any of my buddies over there? Again, no. Am I starting to channel Donny Rumsfeld? Uh, yes...

Ultimately, I find Ashcroft's religion more of a threat to me than Zarqawi.

If we're not in the Mideast, we're not near Mecca.

All you need to know to prove that, is drive by a gasoline station. A big part of the reason why it's so expensive these days, is the INSTABILITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

It's not expensive, certainly not compared to Europe. Instability in the ME is not a big part if we don't want it to be.

We are not entitled to cheap gas.

We can't drill. We can't build refineries, we require over 90 different blends of summer gas. We can't be relatively self-sufficient. We take ourselves out and China uses what we don't.

Doesn't matter. Problem doesn't go away.

Trick - Saddam was a thug at 19. Did we make him that way?

--Please don't explain to me how fortunate the Iraqis are to be liberated. Please go fly to Baghdad and go explain it to THEM.

Because they don't seem real grateful.--

Neither are the frogs, germans, or Sorks, so what's your point?

I also blame Bush. It's his none action and only worrying about his re-election that WON'T happen that he's concerned about. People on his own staff have said this. He's a warmonger. His just trying to finish what Daddy started but, neglected to finish so more people died. I have never seen or heard of so much bloodshed as I have in the past four years. Bush has got to go to get any peace in this world. You righty bushies will all disagree because you're all sniffing bush's ass. He's a disgrace to America!

God Bless Nick Berg and Paul Johnson. They died for Bush and his shitty politics!

Can any of you mouth-breathers explain to me, in rational terms, how mass murder and genocide would make us different from terrorists?

Ask the Japanese.

even remain calm enough to formulate an intelligent response. Sorry.
Posted by: Hubris

I doubt you have one---an intelligent respones that is. Bushie!

We exist. We allow our women education. We allow them to drive, to vote.

The West has been "inciting" them for hundreds of years, even when we didn't allow that.

The Crusades were defensive. Egypt and that area at one time were Christian.

200 years to throw them out of Spain.

Then they came back to the gates of Vienna - 1653 or 1683 we finally repelled them.

And they're back again.

So, unless you want the West and its beliefs and ideals to go bye-bye, we fight. Again.

trick ... can we stay on topic?

This is not about supporting Afghanis AGAINST the Soviets, our blood enemy in the 80s and before ... and it is not about whether you would take holiday in the ME.

It is about death. Your death.

That is exactly what these barbarians want. They want you dead. They preach it from mosques in the ME ... and here in the US. They want you to be dead.

You don't have to go to the ME for them to make that desire come true. They will come to you.

And they don't give a rat's shit that you think they are a bunch of OK fellas that are just miffed at the big old US of A, and that you hate America as much as they do.

They still want you dead.

Think about that while you're hugging your little tree.

Dead. You. They will not stop until they achieve that goal.

syn,

You're right: for twelve long years we had no desperate need to invade. So why the rush?
I read a lot of foreign papers in the lead-up to the war. I presume if you're online you might have done the same. Most of them concluded what the American public is only hearing now- that there was no proof of WMD. As the facts underpinning the Whitehouse's rationale fell apart, our President began recounting the horror of Saddam's reign and our goal became that of rescuing the Iraqi people. Now I'm hearing the same people who voiced hearty backing of that plan endorsing the nuking of the Mideast because Muslims are now somehow a fundamentally flawed segment of society?
I don't get it? How did we get to there?

"The Crusades were defensive"

So, is this a crusade? Thank you for saying exactly what the terrorist propagandists want.

Please explain to me why we were told over and over we were going to Iraq to liberate the Iraqis, and now you want to kill 'em all.

Told what? We were told it was for WMD..First. Bush has chenged his mind so many times why, we're in Iraq, I've lost count of all the reasons. If Bush wouldn't lie so much, maybe we'd all know the REAL reason. Daddy's war!

I guess we don't want OBL anymore eh? He only went after him for the short time that he did so's, he could get that out of the way since OBL screwed up Bushies real plan since he lost the presidency, To finish what daddy started. Only, we're not going to finish it, we're going to pay for it..with our lives while, bushie boy sits in his fucking golf cart 8 months of the year.

I'm too pissed off about these 'tards to snark at them. My bad.
Posted by: renato at June 18, 2004 07:30 PM

How Buffy and the Scooby gang of you...

Lissakay,

I'll forgive you your hysteria if you forgive me the tree-hugging thing.

I'm sure there are thousands of guys willing to kill me in Iraq right now. And I'm thankful I'm not over there. And I worry for the people I know who are there. But the willingness of Iraqis to kill me didn't come out of nowhere. This isn't StarWars. A Shiat isn't a bad man simply because he wears a black helmet and breathes heavily. And George Bush didn't show up for Starfighter training anyway. The point is, war is both a cause and an effect. And religion is too. I've read enough of the Bible and the Koran to think Mohammed and Jesus would have gotten along quite well. And I think they would both be appalled at what's being done, on both sides.
At any rate, the sin-if you want to call it that- lies on both sides.

I don't get it? How did we get to there?

BUSH, that's how. The lying bastard!

Wow trick ... you really do have your head in the sand! Amazing ... truly amazing.

Have you not read or listened to what your Islamist buddies are saying? Do you not read history to see how long they have been saying these things? Do you really not know or comprehend what they mean?

And don't you get it that you and your Islamist-apologist, tree hugging, raving moonbat friends are playing right into their agenda?

They don't give a shit about diplomacy, appeasement or apologies ... apologize all you want, appease them, invite them for a big group hug. Just don't be surprised to find your head on your back ...

Sandy P.

No doubt Sadam was a thug at nineteen.

Christ, man, I'm not going to argue that we hastened that onetime sweet youth down the corridor of darkness...but we did help him to power. As I understand it, when the democratically elected president of Iraq(whose name I can't recall) was negotiating oil contracts with other countries, we backed his toppling. It wasn't about morality- it was maintaining our access to cheap oil. And in that pursuit we funded and armed Saddam all the way up to the first Desert Storm.

Personally, I wanted Saddam out after he invaded Kuwait, but the rantings of a few 'tricks' around the world shouting out paranoid predictions of the devastations of war stopped this from happening. So, the UN catered to the Kool-aid crowd, even though Saddam had also just gassed hundreds of thousands of Kurds, the Kool-aid crowd won. Yelled about the oil then too.

A decade of knowing that the Kool-aid crowd allowed for Saddam to remain in power only to terrorize 25 million Iraqis through murder, rape, torture, starvation is the reason why I am determined to win this war.

If the Kool-aid crowd wants to see the results of their decision to allow Saddam to reign by terror they might wish view the video at American Enterprise Institute showing what happens when you simply 'containt a mere irritant'

Trick-
With all your heart and soul you can fabricate the most fantasical arguments in the world as to why the liberation of Iraq was a bad idea but, this time around, I am not going to cower to your selfish determinations.

What I learned from the lessons of Vietnam and Gulf War I is do not listen to the Kool-aid crowd.

So, trick, if you make a mistake, you have no moral obligation to correct it? In fact, it seems to me that you are saying that if you make a mistake you have an obligation to continue to make that mistake until the end of time.

Interesting viewpoint you have.

I am sure Iraqis loved living under Saddam. That's why, after the fall of Baghdad, everywhere Iraqis went they stomped on his face with their feet.

syn, you fool. they used us, now they want us O.U.T!

you just can't see the whole picture through those bushie colored glasses.

BB -

you got nothin'.

Gee Renato,

I must be delusional.

yes, Syn, you are. Only losers argue with straw men.

I'm glad we can agree about something.

Trick - Saddam was a thug at 19. Did we make him that way?

Maybe not at 19, but he was only a little older when he became our thug.

U.S. forces in Baghdad might now be searching high and low for Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S. intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials.

United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on the report.

While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim.

In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy in what one former U.S. diplomat, who asked not to be identified, described as "a horrible orgy of bloodshed."

According to current and former U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, Iraq was then regarded as a key buffer and strategic asset in the Cold War with the Soviet Union. For example, in the mid-1950s, Iraq was quick to join the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact which was to defend the region and whose members included Turkey, Britain, Iran and Pakistan.

Little attention was paid to Qasim's bloody and conspiratorial regime until his sudden decision to withdraw from the pact in 1959, an act that "freaked everybody out" according to a former senior U.S. State Department official.

Washington watched in marked dismay as Qasim began to buy arms from the Soviet Union and put his own domestic communists into ministry positions of "real power," according to this official. The domestic instability of the country prompted CIA Director Allan Dulles to say publicly that Iraq was "the most dangerous spot in the world."

In the mid-1980s, Miles Copeland, a veteran CIA operative, told UPI the CIA had enjoyed "close ties" with Qasim's ruling Baath Party, just as it had close connections with the intelligence service of Egyptian leader Gamel Abd Nassar. In a recent public statement, Roger Morris, a former National Security Council staffer in the 1970s, confirmed this claim, saying that the CIA had chosen the authoritarian and anti-communist Baath Party "as its instrument."

According to another former senior State Department official, Saddam, while only in his early 20s, became a part of a U.S. plot to get rid of Qasim. According to this source, Saddam was installed in an apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements.

More here.

I know what some of you are going to say next. I'll wait to hear it before I reply. Hehehehehe.

Osama Bin Forgotten.

syn and Kathy K,

I agree that it's sad the way I trip myself up once I start arguing about morality, and for that, I apologize.

You know, if we could just ease off on assuming anything about my shameful liberal character, this would be informative for me. (Really)

Actually, Syn, I thought we should go all the way to Baghdad the first time. I'm a Clausewitz man myself: you don't start a fight unless you're willing to go to the bloody end. I don't think Clausewitz would be too happy with our current plan. Occupations never work out well- unless you're willing to kill the existing population. Which I'm clearly not.

Kathy K, you pose an interesting question. How far back do you go to right a wrong? We imposed the Shah to guarantee cheap gas from Iran. We backed Saddam to do the same in Iraq. Then we armed him to keep the post-Shah rebellion from sweeping all the way to the Saudis and taking their little totalitarian state down. We at first demurred when Saddam threatened Kuwait, saying we had no opinion on arab-on-arab conflicts, then panicked when Saddam gulped the whole country and frightened the President's business partners. What would you have done? What would you have us do now? How would you set abou assuring people we've betrayed multiple times that, this time, we mean it.

Lastly, childishly, I have to establish one thing. No one has ever mistaken me for a pacifist and I've got the scars, the x-rays and the ringing headaches to prove it. So, please, don't assume I'm playin with my beads and dreads as I write this. Thanks. I'll try to keep from huring any similar partisan cliches.

hurling.
hur-ling.

And Renato, thanks for the core dump.

Like I said this on Dean's site, I get the feeling that most of the people in this country are getting tired of the "torture" rants of Abu Grahib. And I believe that the more these terrorists utilize this argument of AG as an excuse to cut someone's head off, or blow something up, the angrier and angrier this country will get - and the more the misdeeds of those few at AG will pale. Keep it up you guys.

Could not agree with you more Michele when you said that being led around by a leash should be the least of their GD worries.

And let us not forget exactly who those poor "tortured" people are ...

So they had to wear panties on their heads. At least they have heads to wear them on ...

I hate to bait the trolls, but I believe June 30, we will be "out" of Iraqi government - so all that crap about "they hate us, now they want us out" is going to be a moot point. And fwiw, the people who "hate us" so much are so bad at projection that they're blowing up hundreds of THEIR OWN PEOPLE. Oooh. That'll get us. 100 more Iraqis dead in front of an army recruiting station.

That's going to show those Americans we mean business.

Please. The peopel who are doing this have no need for the Iraqi people, any more than Saddam did. They aren't "rebels." They aren't "insurgents," and they aren't "freedom fighters." They are murderous thugs who deserve to be exterminated.

I don't agree with the sentiment of bombing the whole place. I know there are a lot of innocent people in the ME who just want to get by like you and I. But the ones who want us out are not those people.

you got nothin'.

Heh heh heh. It must be so frustrating for you that I'm not playing. Keep trying to provoke me; I'm enjoying it.

It seems to me that our relationship with the entire Mideast would be much simpler if we were more honorable in our dealings. That is, if we made, kept and honored our alliances. The problem is that our high ideals are constantly taking backseat to our profit margins- that's where the problem lies.

Perhaps the idea is naive to you, profanely so. But how much would we have spent if we had simply paid higher prices for gas? Would allowing the Mideast to evolve beyond Third World despotism have saved us from the seemingly inescapable culture death match offered now?

I'm not yearning for a utopian vision: I am wondering if longterm fair trade would save us billions by negating the corporate welfare necessary to keep Exxon shareholders happy.

After reading every one of these posts. I side with Trick, think lissakay is a riot and bigbrother is a troll. I hope you don't mind me just reading. I don't have much to comment about since, you're all doing so well without me interfering.

damnitjanet

bigbrother is a troll

More of an anti-troll, at least today. I'm just not in the mood right now, with this latest news, of playing yet another series of games with someone like renato who came into this discussion from the start saying things like "You people are fucking morons." (That's a direct quote.)

I don't debate people like that. He and his fellows (and I'm not including trick in this; he seems actually interested in discussion, even if I don't agree with him) don't want to talk; they want to berate. They want to make themselves feel superior by arguing with the dumbass conservatives, but they aren't willing to take the most basic step: respect for your opponent.

I will freely admit to taunting him, Mike, and their like. I guess, in a way, that does make me a troll. I'm just trolling the trolls. It's pretty easy to do.

All this bickering.
come see what the old up hillbilly has for you and them.
Renato, you are an idiot.
Kill them all I say.
My blind ass is willing to toe the mark.
Who can stand against those that can and will defend themselves.
And yes I have kin in the line of fire.
It is as it has always been for my family. We will defend all of you, even you, Renato.

We are not going to win this thing until we all get on the same page. That is not going to happen until we win the war of ideas against these jackasses who would prefer to see the enemies of civilization destroy us than see a Republican get some credit. We can start with a resounding Bush victory over the most vacous candidate I have ever seen in my life. And I am a registered Democrat who has yet to pull the lever for a Republican in a national election.

My Apologies BB

It's OK, damnitjanet. I've been in a nasty mood today (no surprise), and watching renato twist in the wind has been enjoyable.

What the hell is wrong with you people?!

This post was created out of the rage and disgust for what has happened today. MANY of us feel these same emotions when we think of what this man, and his family, have suffered. Today.

But the jerks who 'troll around', looking for an opportunity to attack the thoughts and opinions of others...! and you have the nerve to accuse others of hatred?!

This whole post-modern, I'm right/you're right, can't we all just get along attitude is foolhardy...actually, just plain foolish. And, it is dangerous.

How has the "pity the poor bullish soul" thing worked for children on the playground? Has the "Now Johnny, you know you should never hit anyone" speach EVER spared a child from bullying?

The truth is, that it's the kid, or adult, or family, or community, OR country that stands up for itself, particularly when faced with grueling circumstances, that achieves self-esteem and respect.

The blessed thing about this is, that once one has achieved the satisfaction that comes from standing up for oneself, the doubters cannot take it away. All they can hope to do is to swoop in, like some insidious, opportunistic disease, and try to plant themselves where they might find the food they need to grow.

As tempting as it is, let's try not to give it to them.

I wish, for just one day, that everyone who follows the blogosphere would simply refuse to fuel their fire, and allow them to suffocate under the heat their own burning rage.

An intelligent person will always welcome a reasoned, albeit passionate debate, and will gladly defend their viewpoint, while considering, thoughtfully, the views of another. As for the others, they're simply wasting our time.

It sure has been a day for a rotten mood. I don't think anyone can be blamed for popping an attitude.
BB

I think, we all saw this coming though. How could we not after, Nick Berg, I just knew when I heard about Paul Johnson Tuesday, it was going to turn out the same. After all, look at what and who we're dealing with here. They didn't care about the 600 prisoners, they really just wanted to kill Paul Johnson. It must be a thrill for them, to see people waiting to find out what his fate will be. That kind of power, they thrive on. It's just sick. I'm glad we killed three of them though, that just leaves hundreds, if not thousands more now. I would imagine since the leader is dead, he's got something of a VP status waiting in the wings to take over the ship.

I know the formatting sucks, but so what.
renato;
You state that INSTABILITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST is the reason for high gas prices. Do you actually think about things prior to speaking? I mean, seriously. OPEC does not fluctuate gas prices commensurate with stability in the Middle East. They, with respect to crude oil pricing, are dictators. They don't give a damn about "INSTABILITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST." They want our dollars, the euro, the peso, the yen and whatever other currency they can lay their greedy, grubby little hands on. It could be like Vermont in the summertime throughout the ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST, and we could STILL be paying $3.24 USD per gallon. Why? Because the guys that have the oil bend us over to get it. Why are they able to do that? Because we, in a now CLEARLY misguided effort to promote trade and bolster relations with the Sauds, promised NOT to turn there little desert oasis into a "slowly cooling plate of radioactive glass in less time that it takes to get through a McDonalds drive thru" (thanks datarat). The sheer GALL of people like Osama, who certainly had it BETTER as a result of our generosity, to stand on his soapbox and claim that we are the devil, we are the problem; it's disgusting! "Berg and Johnson and over 800 American soldiers and thousands of iraqis would be alive today if it weren't for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, a DIVERSION from the WOT" So, do you really want us to believe that Americans would have been/will be safer if we had not gone in/pulled out of Iraq? "I ask you again: Please explain to me, in rational terms, how nuking the Middle East would make us better than the terrorists" I don't actually belive anyone said it WOULD make us better than the terrorists. But you know what? It would make US alive and THEM dead. At least for the short-term. And that would go a LONG way towards making AMERICANS feel safe®. Lastly, to address your issue of Saddam being "our thug"; That we helped him fight back against Iran does not make his atrocities against his own people acceptable. That we helped bin Laden fight back against the Soviets does not make his atrocities against his own people or ours acceptable. We, like a large majority of the rest of the world, use the help we can get when we feel we need it. And, like most of the rest of the world, we don't feel that if our helpers suddenly turn on us that we should forgive them. The bible says "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". Well, we allowed the Taliban to trespass against us, and for a long time we forgave them. Then, bin Laden decided that we were being complacent; so he killed several thousand people who probably didn't have any direct involvement with middle-eastern affairs to prove how awful America is. Saddam trespassed against us. And, again, we forgave him for a long time. Then he went and invaded Kuwait. So we kicked the crap out of the Republic Guard (is it funny that they were they Republican Guard and got their butts whupped?), and sent Saddam packing. At what point do we determine that enough really is enough? Is it ONLY after direct attacks against us on our soil? Are we not allowed "pre-emptive" strikes? Believe me, I know Bush lied about a lot of things. But, I also know that the world IS a better place without Saddam. As it would be without bin Laden, or ANY terrorist. Especially those who would preach religion as their justification in destroying anyone or anything.

Enjoy life while you've got it, because tomorrow you might just lose your head...

Vern

In one breath, your angry and despondent over a complete stranger who was put in harm's way by the policies of our government (over many years) and ideologies of the current administration and its progenitors. In the next you're wishing similarly violent fates for those who happen to voice opinions different from yours.

I can only hope that you can eventually develop perspective. Your enemy is not dissent or those who speak it; your enemy is your refusal to understand why any of this has happened.

germamy

I'm sure the militants are all quivering in fear right now. I know I certainly would be if I were them. I'd be running around frantically screaming "Oh no! A guy on the internet is coming for me! Allah has forsaken me!"

I would like to second Gerard Van der Leun's comment waaaay up there. Only he, as far as I can tell, points out Michelle's dhimmi-like standard d