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sigh

If you ever wonder why I felt the need to give up political blogging, just one of the reasons can be found in the comments on my post about Pat Tillman. Brad of Sad Parade: you are a pathetic prick. I don't often wish bad things on people, but I find myself fantasizing about you being set upon by a swarm of angry bees. I wish you misery, you asshole.

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» http://www.allahpundit.com/archives/000582.html from Allah Is In The House
Glorious news, filth! Inspired perhaps by Allah's updated version of that WWII poster, untold numbers of leftist mujahedeen descended upon Command Post this afternoon to show their patriotism by pissing on Pat Tillman's grave. Allahu Akbar! The one dar... [Read More]

» They Can't Help It from The Waterglass
Some people just gotta be assholes: If you ever wonder why I felt the need to give up political blogging, just one of the reasons can be found in the comments on my post about Pat Tillman. Follow the links... [Read More]

» Real Men are not Talking Points from Graphictruth
All wars, ultimately, are tragic evidence of failure on the part of those who should have known better; indeed, on the part of those who were entrusted with the task of knowing better. But Shit Happens, and we must, absolutely must respect those wh... [Read More]

Comments

I would just like to say that as an anti-(Iraq)war liberal, I found your post moving, poignant and very well-deserved. Please don't mistake Brad (and for God's sake, not "Good", whom I hesitate to even acknowledge with a mention) as representative of how the vast majority of liberal Americans feel. Michele, thank you for putting into words how grateful we all feel for all the Pat Tillmans out there.

Rest in Peace, Pat, and thank you.

Well, I'm about to attempt to stick up for Brad---who I think you took the wrong way---and all liberals when I say that it's OK to oppose the war without trashing the people on both sides caught in it.

Of course Mr. Tillman's death is tragic. It is even more tragic that he was killed so far from home in a war of conquest. Like the brave Englishmen who died to carve out an oppressive colonial empire, Mr. Tillman was caught in the wheels of a capitalistic war, feeding the ever-expanding needs of a corporate oligarchy.

I mourn for Mr. Tillman, and thousands more on both sides who are losing life and limb to feed US and Saudi oil companies. And I hope that someday the people of Iraqi will be free to plot their own destiny, free from homegrown dictators AND from colonial oppression.

And finally: Brad's rubber and you're glue, bitch.

It sad when someone such as Brad needs to jump on every chance to make a point.

The answer to Brad's question was "Charles Rangel". But you're right Drew, it didn't need to be said there. And Michele did not say "Democratic" politicians.

Actually, you could add Chuck Hagel, R-Neb.

Don, don't be such a moron. Mayhaps you'd be more content with the Taliban running Afghanistan, and the terrorists camps it harbored? If you honestly think we're trying to "carve out an oppressive colonial empire" out of that poverty-stricken rock pile, you're smoking an entirely too potent form of crack. Ignorance such as yours should normally just be pitied, but in your case, I think I'll just dislike you instead.

Don,

YOU live in Manhattan, fricking Ground Zero. YOU were attacked by the very people that Pat Tillman was going after when he was killed so they wouldn't do it again... YOU are pathetic.

I dunno, Michele, there are a couple of pricks, a couple of people who have honest disagreements, and a whole bunch of people sticking up for you. I'd say that's pretty good.

"Well, I'm about to attempt to stick up for Brad---who I think you took the wrong way---and all liberals when I say that it's OK to oppose the war without trashing the people on both sides caught in it."

What did Michele take the wrong way? Brad intentionally twisting her words or his talking points that were irrelevant?

I know plenty of people who are opposed to the war who can discuss such without becoming a walking talking point. Brad's not one of them.

"Of course Mr. Tillman's death is tragic. It is even more tragic that he was killed so far from home in a war of conquest. Like the brave Englishmen who died to carve out an oppressive colonial empire, Mr. Tillman was caught in the wheels of a capitalistic war, feeding the ever-expanding needs of a corporate oligarchy."

"I mourn for Mr. Tillman, and thousands more on both sides who are losing life and limb to feed US and Saudi oil companies."

So overwhelmed with grief, you can't help slipping into ideology?

Give us a fucking break.

"And I hope that someday the people of Iraqi will be free to plot their own destiny, free from homegrown dictators AND from colonial oppression."

I hope so too.

My comment on your post honoring Tillman should have been made here.

I'm still learning blog culture mores, so I may be way off base. But it seems clear to me that each post's content calls for a certain level of editorial control over comments. Most posts need no comment editing other than banning trolls, but a few, such as your eloquent tribute to Pat Tillman, deserve to have a comment listing that maintains the dignity of the post itself. Of course, I'm only talking about major blogs that matter, like ASV, not trivial fadblogs that need no mention here.

(In other words, delete the pathetic pricks.)

Ryan and JFH: The War in Afganistan may have STARTED as retaliation, but has become part and parcel of the White House "War of Conquest" policy in the region. Sadaam and the Taliban are gone, but multi-national industries are still there, collecting plunder.

I don't believe I've EVER said a kind word about the Taliban---not even under Reagan, when the US was training and equiping them.

As for Afghanistan being "a poverty-striken rockpile"---well, that's hard to argue, I admit. But Afghanistan's position as a crossroads to Central Asia has made it a strategic point since the "Great Game" of 19th Century imperalism. Today that is reflected in continued BP/Halliburton plans for a trans-Asia oil pipeline and a not-insignificant little heroin trade. See TALIBAN: MILITANT ISLAM, OIL, AND FUNDAMENTALISM IN CENTRAL ASIA by Ahmed Rashid, available now wherever books are sold, for a more complete picture.

And to those who feel they can refute my arguments just by calling me names: fuck you.

Thank you.

Don Myers:

You're "arguments" are scarcely worth refuting because they're nothing but third-hand marxist cliches (I refuse to even go through the effort of pasting in the proper accent here) and express a viewpoint that is so marginal, and so fueled by conspiracy theory unreason and counterfactual claims that it thankfully has very little influence on mainstream opinion. But, with little effort here goes:

First, the US did not train and equip the Taliban government. We equipped various Mujahadeen and warlord factions in a fight against an imperial project of the Soviet empire. Some of these factions may have formed part of the Taliban government (Keep in mind that they didn't take over until 1996, years after the Soviets were driven out) but some of them also became memebers of the Northern alliance or just plain independent warlords.

But, even if the extreme way you formulate it was true, that the Taliban truly was our creation, doesn't that mean that we would have a greater responsibility to destroy it? And wouldn't it be good that we finally came around and did so?

As to the rest of it, we ended one of the most brutal regimes on earth, one which subjugated women at an almost unparalleled level, as well as trafficking in mass executions and torture and sheltering Al Qaeda. Now Afghanistan has a constitution which guarantees the rights of women and minorities and is showing many other signs of progress, though of course there is still a long way to go. Now they have soccer games at the stadium in Kabul instead of mass executions. Pat Tillman died trying to help along that noble and difficult struggle, which was the original point here.

If you really believe this was all done for an oil pipeline than you'll believe anything. Fortunately, most people aren't that gullible.

Uh, Don - Tillman was patrolling the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. Can you think of anyone we might still want to catch who is believed to be hiding out in that region? Three guesses and the first two don't count.

I know I shouldn't even entertain him, but...

Don, why are you even here? Do you have an uncontrollable, insatiable urge to piss people off or what? Do you enjoy driving people up a wall? Be completely honest, and just own up to it already.

Re: Brad and good, there's nothing more pathetic than trolling an RIP post. Shame.

Dear Don:

There are multi-national corporations located throughout the freakin' globe, from China, to Russia, to Saudi-frickin-Arabia. Oh, but that's okay because, you know, they didn't come along after a war. Right? To waggle your stubby finger at multi-national corporations now located in Afghanistan and Iraq is one of the most tired and pointless arguments trotted out by the anti-war crowd. Collecting plunder? Yeah, right, they're just swimming in plunder. Every day, boatloads of plunder are arriving at U.S. docks. From the gilded thrones of bygone Babylonian kings to the finest Afghan rugs--all courtesy of our bloodthirsty conquest and subjugation of the Middle East.

Give me a fucking break.

UnbeFuckinglievable.

Patrick Tillman walks away from millions of dollars to go and serve his country- to fight for something he believes in... and makes the ultimate sacrifice.

Michele (and many other bloggers) writes a post about his death.

Trolls appear.

I could write volumes about that... but This isn't the time, and This isn't the place.

It is though, the most compelling argument to Michele's blogging decision I could imagine.

....
Rangers Lead The Way, Patrick.

Eric, you are absolutely right when you note that my views are not in the mainstream. This alone hardly refutes my arguments, since the majority can and often is wrong. Slavery, the ban on inter-racial marriage, and "American Idol" have all enjoyed widespread support at one time or another.

As for Marxist...well, in a veeeeeeery broad sense of the word, maybe. A little. But don't lump me in with Uncle Joe.

And as for the US arming the Mujahadeen---well, yes, technically you are correct. I was trying to make a point about how the US will back any tyrant, any despot, anywhere if it is in the best interests of the Fortune 500. I ended up playing a little fast-and-loose with the timeline, though, and you were right to call me on it.

We agree on a couple of points---the Tailban: very bad. Very, very bad. Mr. Tillman's death: A tragedy.

We simply disagree about WHY US troops are there. You think it's for freedom, while I think it's for commerce.

You're right Jack, it's not. I really want to, but this ain't it.

Instead, I'm going to do something I've been looking forward to for months. The 4th ID is back home (we live close to Ft. Hood). Tomorrow, me and the band have been asked to play a welcome home gig for about 300 soldiers and their families. It isn't a big deal, but I can't wait.

Especially to say "thank you". And to have some fun.

RyMaN600: The whole point of opening a blog to comments is to engage in a discussion. If the only comments are "you rawk" and "amen" the conversation becomes pretty dull.

Blogger posts an opinion, I disagree and explain why, and we might learn something. except for the rabid name-callers, but I don't care about those fuckers.

Driving conservatives up the wall is just a delightful side benefit.

Don,

You don't drive me up the wall. The more you post, the more I'm amused at your lack of intellect and knowledge in the areas of economics, the military and geopolitical theory.

Don Myers:

Actually, the original post was a memorial and had no explicitly political content. So, what you did was similar to interrupting a funeral to air your political views.

"Blogger posts an opinion, I disagree and explain why"

It wasn't an opinion, it was a eulogy and a thank you, fuckwit.

Don:

We could argue over the intentions of the war until we're all dead. I'm not interested in arguing over your opinion. You won't change my opinion, I won't change yours. This topic has been absolutely beaten to DEATH over the past 3 years.

Your admittedly marxist rant isn't what I have a problem with. I have a problem with your decision to post it. It's absolutely unnecessary.

Pat Tillman dies in Afghanistan, and Michelle pays her respects. For some unbelievable reason, this attracts trolls like flies on $hit.

Michelle throws her hands in the air, and reminds us all as to why she doesn't blog about politics anymore. And for some reason, you feel this is the perfect opportunity to saunter in here, whip out your soapbox, and preach to the "unwashed".

I know you're trying your best to convince us otherwise, but you came here for a knock-down, drag-out argument with a bunch of war-hawks. Believe me, NOBODY really wants to hear it anymore. The time for this argument has passed; the horse is long dead. You're beating its skeleton into powder, and apparently having a blast doing it.

That's what I have a problem with.

"Blogger posts an opinion, I disagree and explain why, and we might learn something"

Which you punctuated by calling Michele a bitch and then later you decided to lie. So we have learned something Don, you will lie when it suits your purposes(espcially when preching the "truth") and you are rude.

"Driving conservatives up the wall is just a delightful side benefit."

For a supposedly well read guy, you buy marxist dogma hook, line and sinker. Useful idiot indeed.

I just realized we have a few different Ryans here.

Take that Michaels of the world!

The Irish are coming!

If it's any consolation, there isn't a comment thread anywhere in the blogosphere about Tillman's death that hasn't degenerated thusly.

Would that there would have been so much fanfare for any of the over 700 others that died in the last 30 months. As it stands there was more fuss over a wounded young woman who was taken hostage and whose condition was stabilized by her captors than over any of the soldiers who have died. If anything, today's discussions have laid bare the true depth of the division in this country about the wars in which we are engaged. We can't even agree to honor our fallen soldiers, when it should be such a no-brainer that even one-percenters like me (who opposed even Enduring Freedom) can agree.

Michele, this is only a suggestion, so don't go nuts on me if you disagree, OK?

In the future, when you're posting an honorarium of some sort, maybe you could add something like:

"In honor of the dead, please refrain from politicizing or trollitizing this tribute. Any other time, I don't give a shit. Failure to respect my wishes will get you permanently banned. It's my site, and 'that's just the fucking way it is.'"

Personally, I think the Pat Tillmans of this world deserve no less than the few moments recognition you and others honor them with, unencumbered by bullshit politics-as-religion or infantile look-what-I-can-do-with-my-keyboard theatrics.

On to victory.

Geez, next time there will be no comments. I just spent a half hour deleting the same shit at Command Post.

Uh, Don, you have a blog. You could've used that to write your crap instead of spilling it here. We don't need another Brad to pollute Mr. Tillman's memorial.

michelle:

No kidding. The comments on the Command Post were unbelievable and absolutely disgusting.

What is wrong with these people? Actually, I don't even want to know...

Sometimes, I lean heavily towards just giving up on humanity. :-(

Closing the comments, at least for this sort of post, is probably the best course of action. It only takes one miscreant to start a verbal firefight that ends up overshadowing the meaning of the original post.

I don't care what someone's political persuasion is, it's wrong to cackle gleefully about the injury or death of a member of the opposition. It's not just a lefty phenomenon - even when we kill terrorists who very much needed to be killed, we should comport ourselves with dignity and genuine regret that such actions were necessary.

This whole business of dancing on people's graves - no matter whose grave it may be - is simply wrong.

RyMaN600, I think Don's just a little lonely. He posts here so someone will actually read his crap. Lots of gooseggs on his blog.

Don and the other tools from the other thread "missed a perfectly good opportunity to shut the fuck up" to paraphrase another guy who was against the war.

Just as "in person", I chose to ignore those who post intellectual trash. I don't listen to Rush - but I do listen to NPR (becuase I think they are peddling shit and cannot for the life of them SMELL it). The positive angle of dealing with people like "Don Myers" is when you meet them in person you realize they are frauds. Tough-talking self-described "progressives" or psuedo-marxists have universally shown themselves (in my experience) to be weak-shit spawn of the middle-class with serious mommy and daddy issues. Hey Don, why don't you wear a "marxist" t-shirt to mommy and daddy's house on thanksgiving - Oh, that'll show 'em!

Michele, our honored dead will always be just that: our honored dead. There's nothing anyone can ever say to take that away.

Idiots, as with the poor, will always be with us, too.

Screw the trolls and full steam ahead.

For me, and perhaps at least partly for Michele,a big problem is that political posts seem to attract people who wish to rant about a political obsession of theirs without regard to the topic of the post, the arguments of others, or even basic etiquette. These people seem to have a complusive need to express their favorite political points regardless of the appropriateness of the expression. To make things worse, some of these people are also insecure and love attention. These people derail discussion threads, making legitimate debate difficult, and insult and alienate worthy bloggers like Michele. That such compulsive political point-scoring would show up in the comments to a eulogy underscores the problem.

Brad and Don are stupid. Throw rocks at them.

Actually, folks, I posted here in response to Michelle's hateful comments about Brad, and then I got sucked into a "debate" with a collection of jingoistic sycophants. I tried to reason with namecalling halfwits---what the hell was I thinking? I dunno. I never cease to be amazed by the intellecttly-bankrupt American right wing---but I should stop being surprised.

I apologize, and you can all go back to agreeing with each other over and over and over again. Have a nice day.

Dave J: When I read shit like Don's and find out it's someone from NYC, I just want scream, then track the bastard down, drag him over to the Pit, and recite the list of names from the twenty-two funerals I attended after 9-11. After each name a kick in the balls and "still feeling snarky, fuckhead?"

Halfwits. Fuckers. Bitch.

Don, intellectually bankrupt does not mean people who disagree with you.

Yikes! We are intellecttly-bankrupt! Whatever that means.

Over educated shithead, indeed.

If mom finds out, I'm in big trouble!

Don sent a flame to Michele /
but in his defense she's smart and posted here firrrrrst /
I hope it doesn't ends up in a hearrrrse /
at the cemetarrryyyyyy /
Because that would mean that she's dead /
Michele is not dead /
We're so glad Michele is not dead

[if you don't know what tune this goes to, you probably shouldn't be reading ASV]

You jingoistic sycophants need to get beyond your empty jingoism and sloganeering.

Not only must we wage peace, we must visualize world peace. We must also be prepared to think globally and act locally, because mean people suck, and Nine Inch Nails. And also, University Pontiac-GMC-Subaru.

Good thing most of us know where yer REALLY coming from, Iowahawk, eh? Elstwise, we might miss the delicious (and quite appropriate) sarcasm...

I love how this "Don Myers" guy now tries to cover his ass with a Kerry-like flip: "But I thought we were arguing yadayadayada like always!"

Here's hoping he can henceforth tell the difference between a campaign rally and a cemetery, or he's in for a LONG fucking 6 months and a lot of wasted gas.

God bless our men & women in uniform, our fallen heroes and their loved ones.

Brad, "good", and Don:

Well, you certainly aren't gonna win anyone over to your side with arguments like these.

And you aren't trying to. After much puzzling over why anybody would conduct themselves in this manner, I've had an epiphany: Your only purpose is to soil and despoil. Your entire belief system is a fraud, but you dare not admit that to yourselves. If you are to keep your illusions intact, you cannot and will not allow virtue to stand unsullied. You must denounce, defame and decry. You remind me of the beach bullies who kick over the other kid's sand castles, and think that their ability to destroy and deprive makes them as great as those who create and achieve.

And these morons will tell us that they're "the good guys", with a straight face no less Crawl back into your hole!!!

Geezer just reminded me of some other left wing assholes that couldn't tell the difference between a memorial service and a political rally.The year was 2000... Hey Don, did you take it out of their play book?

One of the ironies of war is often the very best people a country has to offer die in combat, while weasels who criticize the war effort from a distance, without ever putting themselves in harm's way, live on.

One thing a lot of the anti-war protestors don't get is the idea that "it's not your call." You don't get to decide how we conduct the war. That's what the executive branch does. We get input through our reps, and maybe we can scream and shout, but ultimately, we're better off giving the executive the benefit of the doubt.

Is George Bush responding to 9-11 the way I would've? Not even close. But unlike some folks, I recognize that putting all my effort into trying to force him to change his plan makes it more likely that his plan will fail. I don't if Bush's plan will succeed. But at least I'd like to see him get a fair shot, and put all his effort into implementing his plan.

What anti-war protestors have done has forced the president to expend enormous political capital and energy on making his case, over and over again, for war. That energy would be better off put into the war effort.

So excuse me if I don't buy the "resources for Iraq should've gone to Afghanistan" argument. How about resources for the war on terror shouldn't have gone to having to waste time dealing with anti-war nutjobs.

I have encountered Mr. Don Myers before. I had, based on these encounters, considered him to be more of a silly fool than anything. I see here that he is something rather worse than I thought. Therefore his remarks have been removed from my blog, and he will not be allowed to comment there ever again. Life is too short to waste on jerks that can't appreciate the fact that they live free because of the willing sacrifices of men like Pat Tillman.

I wonder if I can stop my slow slide into senility by declaring "intelectual bankrupcy".

I'm sorry, but from now on I'm keeping all of my brain cells to myself! You only get 2 cents on a memory.

I feel nothing but deepest respect for Pat Tillman. And I pray that terrorists may pay a visit to Don, and maybe stick electrodes up his ass and crank up the current. I wish that the magnetic fields curling around that current may rearrange the cells in his brain. Pat Tillman died to free others. He gave up his footbal career, and his life...for the freedom of others. What the fuck is wrong about that?

"When in doubt, always end your posting with 'have a nice day'.

It's unoriginal but hey, you're a trolling asshole with nothing better to do."

From the best-selling handbook "Trolling for Dummies"

Imagine, I once thought Melville was boring...But no more.

This adaption of Moby's Dicks on The Don & Brad Moonbat Variety Show beats the shi'ite out of the book.

When's the movie?

I too was saddened to hear of Pat Tillman's death. What shocks me now as a liberal is reading the above comments assuming all liberals are against the war. Last I checked, liberals are against genocide. Anyone against genocide had to be for the Iraq War. To oppose the war is to support Saddam's atrocities and genocide. To oppose the war was to explicitly support extermination of the Kurds. By the way, I was also saddened to hear of Mary McGrory's passing. She was one of the most liberal political writers of the past century. She too supported the war - because she opposed genocide. Want to assure John Kerry's defeat? Just keep piping up about your opposition to the war and wed those comments to your support for Kerry. I and other liberals will happily assist the evangelicals in making sure you get buggered by Bush for another 4 years. Go ahead. Make our day.

Ok, folks.

I find myself in the interesting position of agreeing with nobody here, save Michelle's "fuckwit" comment.

HOWEVER - <a href=""IB Bill's comment is one that shouldn't be ignored.

What anti-war protestors have done has forced the president to expend enormous political capital and energy on making his case, over and over again, for war. That energy would be better off put into the war effort.

This (and in general, all other comments, lefty, righty and tighty-whity) probably need to be addressed, but

NOT HERE!

Michelle is trying to keep her politics out of her blog. And I, for one, do not see the Tillman post as being an exception that permits violating the rules.

So grow up, do NOT feed the trolls and generally behave in such a way so that yo momma wouldn't feel the necessity to slap yo ass around ifn' you was to do it in public in her presence.

I will answer this point on my blog, but I will not speak to it here.

Since I live in Florida, do I get to claim my state-law homestead exemption in Intellectual Bankruptcy Court? ;-)

I just bounced a check since my account doesn't have any more intellectual capital.

Rest in Peace, Pat.

Pat is a symbol of what America is about for most of us. This is why his noble and heroic story upsets those that are anti-American, anti-reality, anti-logic and/or anti-everything.

People like Pat are an indisputable proof that the vile venom they constantly spew about America is wrong, hateful and illogical.

Most of our troops have the same motivations that Pat had. But with Pat giving up what he did to fight for his country, it makes it impossible for those anti-everything people to discredit him as they attempt to do with all of the coalition troops and America in general.

This makes them lash out in anger and frustration. And so, in this way, Pat is STILL fighting the good fight. Even his memory is having a negative and demoralizing effect on the enemy and those that support and sympathize with the enemy.

He remains an inspiration and great source of pride to all of us, as do all of our troops fighting the good fight.

Michele,
Followed your link to Brad's post. If I was at the right one, the Tillman reference is down quite a ways and put into the perspective of the operation Tillman was involved in when he was killed. It strikes me that Brad's central point is not at all unpatriotic: that an obviously honorable man's life was wasted in a half-hearted endeavor. I'm sure the guys on the ground give their all. The leadership isn't giving their all if that is all they can muster for the effort. Questioning how that life was lost is basic to tallying the human cost. Gotta wonder why that concern makes you wish bad things on him.