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my mother, the murderer

I donít know why my reaction to a female homicide bomber* should be any different than my reaction to a male bomber, but it is.

22 years old.

The bomber was identified as Hamas member Reem Al-Reyashi, 22, of Gaza. Family members said she had a 3-year-old boy and 1-year-old girl. Smiling at times in a videotape that showed her cradling a rifle, Al-Reyashi said she had dreamed since she was 13 of "becoming a martyr" and dying for her people. "It was always my wish to turn my body into deadly shrapnel against the Zionists and to knock on the doors of heaven with the skulls of Zionists," said Reyashi, wearing combat fatigues with a Hamas sash across her chest. "God gave me two children and I loved them so much. Only God knew how much I loved them," she said.

What kind of society raises a person to believe in such a way of life? Please, donít tell me about oppression, donít tell me about poverty. Plenty of people around the world perceive themselves as being oppressed and impoverished, but they arenít going around murdering people because of it.

Itís a certain society that breeds this kind of thinking. Years of brainwashing and the use of religion as an instrument of propaganda teaches children to believe that murder is noble, that suicide is to be rewarded, that their god will love them for what they have done.

"God gave me two children and I loved them so much. Only God knew how much I loved them," she said.

Repeat that out loud a couple of times. Remember that those words came out of the mouth of someone who killed herself in order to murder four innocent people. From the mouth of a woman who left two small children without a mother.

And the saddest part is this: The children will grow up to view their mother as a martyr and her deed as heroic. And someday, they will strap a grenade-filled belt on themselves and do the same.

In Reem Al-Reyashiís defense, she never had a chance. She did what she was brainwashed to do. She did what her elders before her, what her neighbors and relatives and teachers told her was good and righteous. And thatís why there is no chance for peace. This violence will never end, not as long as Hamas and Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and Yasser Arafat's and Fatah movement are allowed to reign free in the Middle East. Not as long as Americans keep supporting the Palestinian terrorists by burning American flags and standing in front of bulldozers. Not as long as Yasser Arafat is allowed to breathe. Not as long as the money to pay for all of these explosives is funneled in from other countries.

When does Israel get to defend herself without being taken to task for it? When does she get to retaliate without being condemned? The most likely answer is never. How sad.

*Alan started me thinking about the term homicide bomber over here, and I shall have more on that later
__________________________________________________
Update: When I wrote the sentence In Reem Al-Reyashiís defense, she never had a chance, I was trying to emphasize the fact that the hatred is handed down from generation to generation like a family heirloom. I know that this woman had a choice and I feel no sympathy for her or her family at all. But I do believe that her choice was certainly colored by her upbringing.

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Comments

Michele, I agree with much of what you said. However, I don't buy your defense of this woman. I know you believe she was brainwashed, and was caught in an inescapable web of family and societal teaching. I believe she still had a choice. We all do. How do we explain those women who grew up in the same atmosphere, in the same circumstances who cringe at the thought of doing what she did? They must exist. Don't give up on free will quite yet.

Extremely well said.

hear, hear.

I think there's a possibility of more coercion here than propaganda and brainwashing. I don't have much evidence of that besides an intuition I get while looking at some of the more recent homicide bombers, and a feeling from reading some of the details.

My suspicion is yes these people are full of hate, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the terroristic thugs behind this are simply coercing people into becoming cannon fodder.

MD, well put. I agree with you 100%. They do have a choice, but they prefer to be human bombs. The sex of a homicide bomber is irrelevant. They are just evil wretches who don't deserve our pitty, just our disgust and loathing.

This is going to sound incredibly sarcastic, but I don't mean for it to be. It's an honest question: if a male "martyr" gets 72 virgins as a reward, what does a female "martyr" get when she goes off to the great beyond? Her own set of 72 male virgins or is she required to remain chaste even in heaven?

Anyone know?

It would be good to know what's good enough incentive to blow yourself up and to create a pair of orphans in the process.

{insert much shaking of head here}

It's not her being female that got me. It's the two kids. What a bitch.

According to LGF, a female martyr gets one guy. Which presumably means she shares him with 71 other chicks. Woo.

Michele, thanks for your clarification. I do think that circumstances must influence our choices. That last choice, though, between committing good or evil, is what defines us as human beings. I do, however, feel sympathy for those whose souls are so lost that they would do such a thing. It doesn't make me soft on crime or terror, it's just how I feel.

Another suicide bomber and the reason cannot be discerned. Especially if you don't wanna know. Israel has occupied the West Bank for over 30 yrs., can anyone tell me what their plan is?

Regarding the asterisk only (and cross-posted at the Command Post):

I tend to think that "homicide bomber" is redundant, and that a "suicide bomber" is simply a subset of "bomber". Someone, I feel, must have already made this point.

i'm gonna sound incredibly sarcastic, too:

To: Hamas
From: American Leftists for Palestinians

We are pleased that you have finally seen the light re: women's rights. It was a heavy weight on our hearts to know that women weren't being given the same opportunity to participate in your organization that men received. But we shouldn't stop here. No, there is a golden opportunity to keep moving forward. We'd like to arrange a meeting to talk to you about possibly employing members of the Bi-sexual, Gay, Lesbian and Transgender (BGLT) community. We've received complaints in the past concerning your treatment of such people.

cc: Yassir Arafat, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, International ANSWER

Kathy:

I once read that the reward (for men anyway) is 100 virgin horis, 72 of which are female. Supposedly there was some lusty poetry describing the boys as well. Never mind what's legal down here on earth, they promise everything in heaven

But whether that was true or not (and I'll bet it is), every shahid is promised a place of honor and free passes into heaven for friends and family! I've read that one enough times and in enough places to be sure of it.

Ken:

How about a letter from PETA thanking them for not blowing up another innocent donkey?

BTW it often occurs to me that if people believe that you get a "get into heaven free (for you and your family)" card just for killing Infidels, that's enough.

It could be the Palestinian national sport. Or the Wahabi version of spritual welfare for sinful families... What I'm trying to say is that they don't NEED any more of a reason, if they really believe it.

It's certainly instructive to read so many smug comments about a woman who killed herself and others in pursuit of what many feel is a legitimate political end. I'll ask again, Israel has occupied the West Bank for over 30 yrs, what is the plan?

Wrapper she died protecting a weapons tunnel.

The plan is to bring the Middle East into this century so that they have better things to think about than wishing for genocide against the Jews.

Oh and killing/jailing any remaining terrorists.

about a woman who killed herself

Never heard that version before. The Palestinian propaganda version was that she was killed in cold blood by a maniac wielding a deadly tractor.

The driver's version was that she must have gotten into his blind spot and tripped.

But now you claim that she was diliberately a suicide pancake. You need to get your propaganda straight before posting.

OOOPS Sorry, I was posting on two thread at once and got confused about which was which... Also I'm missing sleep.

Rachel Corey got this year's Fiskie award for best Idiotarian over at LGF...

Got her confused with the Suicide terrorist mom, may she burn in hell.

That's interesting josh. Seizing and throwing people off their land, bulldozing their homes, expressing shock that they aren't satisfied with getting a portion of their property back, is actually a form of education. Do I have that straight? This is education? It's how you bring people into this century? Is that what you're saying?

>Plenty of people around the world perceive themselves as being oppressed and impoverished, but they arenít going around murdering people because of it.
My god. Are you really so obtuse?

If someone had stolen your home, killed your family and forced you to live in wretched poverty for forty years while they prospered, are you saying you would adopt a sanguine, serene attitude towards them?

You're amazing. I commend you for your live and let live spirit!

If this were to happen to a sane person, on the other hand, they would be filled with rage and despair, and probably fight tooth and nail for what is rightfully theirs.

Wrapper and "" seem to have learned their history entirely from propaganda. That's shameful for whatever country they happen to live in. Don't you have schools in wherever that is?

It all reminds me of what Golda Meir said about 30 years ago: "We'll get peace when the Arabs start loving their children more than they hate the Jews."

Still waiting...

I could say the same for you josh and that gets us nowhere. Right? Please tell me what's wrong with the following statements.

Israel has occupied the West bank for over 30 yrs.

The Arab population of the West bank are not Israeli citizens.

In many instances the Arabs have been pushed off their land which was subsequently given to Israeli settlers.

There seems to be no Israeli plan to deal with this situation. Killing is followed with revenge killing. Israeli occupation of the West Bank is the catalyst for this cycle.

Israel should withdraw from the West Bank and declare the borders of their country and then attain the moral standing to defend themselves from without.

I'm tired of arguing this stuff. Been doing it for too many years...

So I'm going to get lazy and reduce the sitation to a few sentences and it's up to you to investigate if you care to.

1. Arafat, the Arabs, the Persian etc. have a vision - not a separate state, but genocide and nothing but genocide. His party isn't even called "The Palestinian Liberation Organization" any more it's called "Fatah" or conquest.

See, the goal posts have moved from liberation to conquest.

Polls are important:
The majority of Israelis want peace, and would give up land for it, but no longer believe that the PLO sincerely offers peace no matter what price is offered.

They're right about that.

The majority of Palestinians support total conquest of Israel, and even support the continuation of terrorist acts after the creation of a Palestinian state. This is no accident since Arafat has insured that complete indoctrination to this end is pervasive.

The calls for genocide and even the violence predate the creation of Israel and the Nabka by many years. Isrealis are hated for being Jews not for being Israelis.

The whole narative sold by Arab propagandists is a big lie. There is no truth to it at all..

Isrealis do what they can to try to protect their lives, and this is always painted as a crime..

Look, you want to understand the middle east? Read every translation from Arabic you can find or learn Arabic. Read newspapers, read educational materials, find out what political speechs say, find out what is being preached in the various kinds of Mosques... I did that after 9/11 and I was scared out of my wits.

Middle Eastern Muslims are as indocrinated and bigoted as the Nazis were, at least as worked up into a war frenzy, much more ignorant than the Germans were and surprizingly more comfortable with genocide. What the Nazis did quietly, lying about it, the Arabs/Gulf Muslims call for openly and without shame.

Oh and that BBC "cycle of violence" stuff is a lie. These terrorist groups don't actually kill for revenge, though they find it helps their popularity to say so. They kill because killing Jews is popular, will get you and your family into heaven and gets you your 100 virgins, and get's your family a bunch of money from "charity groups"...

A high school basketball team was named after a teenager who broke into a kibbutz (filled with lefty Jews who sympathized with the Palestinian's cause) and shot two children sleeping in their beds and shot their mother.

Other teams have been named after the bombers. This in Arafat's police state where there is no freedom of speech.

The radio plays songs telling children to "drop their toys and pick up rocks" children sing songs on TV glorifying blowing up Jews...

It would take another 1000 words to convince you that Arafat's regime makes sure that children are put in harms way so that propaganda can use their deaths and injuries... And that in my experience the indoctrination is so successful (or the culture so sick) that the average citizen will distort the deaths of loved ones to make the Israelis seem culpable... Its all too sick for words.

Suicide bombing isn't a cycle of revenge it's the national a sport, it the a moment of fame, its a religious sacrament, an honor and it's $10000 in a country with no economy.

And the Palestinians who lost their homes lost them because they prefered fighting to peace. That's the ultimate truth.

You know there's never been a society as ripe to be effected by non-violent resistance than Israel. It has a liberal press (ever read Ha'aretz?) The people are liberal. There's freedom of speech. People respect life and want to be moral.

Those are the prerequisites for successful nonviolent action, and they're all there in excess.

If they Palestinians had used Gandi's methods instead of being unsuccessful at genocide, they could have gotten any rights at all easily, including the right of return. The Israelis were mostly worried for their saftey, so a peaceful campaign would have asuaged their worries. But a campaign that never stopped promising to spill their blood and cleanse the land was of course the very worst thing the Palestinians could support.

And they all support that, and only that.

Welcome to hell.

Oh, BTW, the dispair arguement lies down and dies on every concievable front.

Terrorist are better educated and better off in average than most. While this is true in the case of who becomes terrorists in PA (or even Al Qa'eda - remember it was a bunch of rich bitches who flew into the WTC)... - in Palestine terrorism actually makes money because money flows in to support terrorism.

But how about the people? Well before the first intifada, the Palestinians had the second highest median income in the Gulf (the Israelis had the highest). They made about 1/4 what the Israelis earned. I forget, but the average Syrian made maybe 1/4 what the average Palestinian made.

The reason is obvious. Israel has the only functional economy in the Gulf. The rest of the countries are too corrupt, too bureaucratic and too xenophobic to support business. The Palestinians were getting their money by living at the perifery of the only functional society in the area.

This is probably one reason the Palestinian polulation grew at the same rate as the Israeli population. Israel absorbed wave after wave of immigrants, including 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab/Persian countries... Well no doubt Palestinians flocked in because the economy was better than Egypt or Jordan.

To finish that last though. The Palestinans are poor now only because being completely unsuccessful at conquest destroys your economy and doesn't pay so well.

There's much more but I'm stopping here.

Got anything to add?

JOSH SCHOLAR, there is so much wrong with your posts up above I hardly know where to begin.

>The calls for genocide and even the violence predate the creation of Israel and the Nabka by many years. Isrealis are hated for being Jews not for being Israelis.
You are blaming the victims. Again, the facts on the grounds are that the Palestinians are the OCCUPIED, not the OCCUPIERS. Any rational person would hate the oppressors in this situation, and even give up their lives to fight back.

All that being said: I do agree that at some point the Palestinians will have to suck it up and just deal with the fact that they have been screwed -as Native Americans, Armenians, and African Americans have had to do in the past.

But for you and Michelle to blame the victims to say: "Itís a certain society that breeds this kind of thinking." ignoring again the fact that they ahve been kickd out of their homes and occupied for OVER FIFTY YEARS NOW, sets me off. WHy do you do this?

JOSH SCHOLAR, there is so much wrong with your posts up above I hardly know where to begin.

>The calls for genocide and even the violence predate the creation of Israel and the Nabka by many years. Isrealis are hated for being Jews not for being Israelis.
You are blaming the victims. Again, the facts on the grounds are that the Palestinians are the OCCUPIED, not the OCCUPIERS. Any rational person would hate the oppressors in this situation, and even give up their lives to fight back.

All that being said: I do agree that at some point the Palestinians will have to suck it up and just deal with the fact that they have been screwed -as Native Americans, Armenians, and African Americans have had to do in the past.

But for you and Michelle to blame the victims to say: "Itís a certain society that breeds this kind of thinking." ignoring again the fact that they ahve been kickd out of their homes and occupied for OVER FIFTY YEARS NOW, sets me off. WHy do you do this?

Dissent:

You have a serious problem understanding the concept of cause and effect. A cause can not come after the effect.

Tired? Nonsense. What's the plan? How does Israel, the dominant partner in this drama, plan to end the cycle?

By your standards, Iraq is hopeless because of the terrorism and we should continue the occupation forever and get someone else to pay for it. It's the Israeli model and apparently you're in favor of it.

Gotta take a break though. My cell phone is out of batteries. I can't be on the internet AND charging it at the same time... Long story short I probably won't be back online till late tonight or tomorrow morning.

It's not Israel's job to end the cycle. It's the responsibility of the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians to stop murdering misguided people for the purpose of murdering innocent people for the purpose of winning a war that it is simply not possible for them to win.

wrapper and dissent, you are grossly uninformed about this conflict.

vist:

http://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

Hardly know what to say to someone who thinks going to jewishvirtuallibrary will provide an objective overview of this situation.

What is the plan? After 30 yrs. what is the plan? I'm starting to repeat myself a lot. Is the U.N. resoulution calling for withdrawal from the West Bank any less valid than the one Pres. Bush used to justify invading Iraq?

Israel took peoples homes and lands and the victims want them back. Simple really.

>It's not Israel's job to end the cycle.
Yes, it is. The moral responsibility to end the cycle does indeed fall on the oppressor, not on the oppressed.

To criticize Palestinian terrorism without putting it in the context of their horrific occupation, is to criticize the savagery of Native American scalping raids without reference to white settler expansionism.

Okay, Wrapper, let me ask you this.

If Israel were to do as you suggest, pull back the IDF and end the occupation, do you think that the Palestinians would stop the suicide bombings?

If you say yes, then you're ignoring history. No concession ever made by Israel (and yes, they have made concessions; Israel used to own Lebanon and the Sinai peninsula) has ever deterred the suicide bombers. No Israeli attempt at negotiation has ever been met with good faith, not even Barak's, and he was willing to offer the Palestinians pretty much everything they ever wanted except Greater Israel itself. Israel has learned that Palestinians (and Muslim Arabs in general) view negotiation and concessions as signs of weakness, cues to step up the attack in the hopes of getting even more.

If you say no, then you must admit that the occupation is justified. If the Palestinians are going to commit suicide bomber atrocities no matter what, then Israel is justified in taking steps to defend itself.

This is the bind Israel finds itself in. And your last statement proves that you know nothing of the history of how Israel was created. I suggest you learn. Most of Greater Israel was purchased from itenerant nomads who considered it wasteland and were glad to get rid of it. Only when the Muslim Arabs realized that the Israelis were on the verge of creating a state did they come up with the whole "poor dispossed Palestinian" act in order to cast Israel (whom they repeatedly attacked and tried to obliterate) in a bad light.

And while 400,000 Arabs did flee Israel when it became apparent the country would be attacked by every surrounding Arab nation in 1948, they didn't do so because they were forced out by the "evil Jews". Quite the opposite, the Israelis WANTED them to stay, but they believed that Israel was about to be destroyed and left anyway.

On the other hand, during and after the 1948 war, over EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND Jews who had been peaceably living in the surrounding Arab states were forced from THEIR homes and fled to Israel.

Israel assimilated their refugees. They are no longer refugees, they are now Israeli citizens.

The Arab world refuses to assimilate theirs, prefering to keep them poor and indoctrinated to use them as shock troops in a war the Arab world cannot win.

Oh, and "the plan" is to build a wall in an effort to absolutely minimize Palestinian suicide bombings, and then to turn their backs on the Palestinians, a people they have never been and should never have been held responsible for.

Don't forget, the only reason Israel has Judaea and Samaria today is because King Hussein told Israel to piss off when they offered to return them. King Hussein was not a stupid man, and remember that Arafat had tried to overthrow the Jordanian government in the 60s. Arafat was offered a state-within-a-state in Jordan, of which he'd have been Prime Minister. He decided to continue terrorism instead. When Israel approached King Hussein for a peace treaty, Hussein agreed to peace, but he told Israel to keep Judaea and Samaria, thinking (correctly) that doing so would keep Arafat off his back. Why he ever got out of Tunisia alive is beyond me. Someone screwed that one up big time.

Oh yeah--you whiny bastards want some dead Palestinians? Let's try 3000 of them, in one month alone. The month? September 1970. Who did it? The Royal Jordanian Army. The same army whose ass the IDF has kicked no less than three times. If the intent of Israel were to kill Palestinians, there would've been none left in "Palestine" since about 1975.

wrapper

Objective is as objective does.

When we wanted to get America to support WWII the most effective "propaganda" was to expose Americans to NAZI propaganda. That said it all.

I haven't bothered to click through the "jewishvirtuallibrary" links to see whats there, but the truth is that they don't even have to exaggurate or be one sided to make an airtight case.

Sometimes one side really is completely dishonest and wrong.

"Israel took peoples homes and lands and the victims want them back. Simple really."

Yes a very simple narative that has little basis in truth. But being simple and morally clearcut is what makes it good propaganda.

Josh - You're wasting your time. Wrapper the Propagandist was just on Roger Simon's site getting slapped around for his idiocy as well.

It seems that people forget that the "paleostinians" chose not to accept statehood in 47 and instead attack Israel, with the help of their Arab allies; It seems that people forget that the "paleostinians land" was illegal occupied and annexed by Jordan and Egypt from 48-67; It seems that people forgot that the 67 war was a pre emptive war that Israel had no choice but to fight and win and only then did "occupy" this so called "palestinian land"; does UNSC res 242 mean anything where in it no where does it say Israel has to do anything until the Arab world agrees to live in peace and after that Israel is to give back territory as SHE sees fit? does the 3 no's mean anything to wrapper? does the Yom Kippur war mean anything? does the Barak offer in 00 mean anything? no of course not - the "paleos" don't want A state, they want all of Israel, judenfried, but people, morons, like wrapper, are to deluded to see the truth.

Piss on them.

Re: "Homicide Bomber" vs. "Suicide Bomber"

My preference, given that I can make up my own terminology is "Suicide Terrorist"

Reasons Arafat et. al. invented suicide terrorism:

1. If terrorists survived attacking civilians in Israel some of them would get caught.

a) Caught terrorists would be tried as criminals and punished for their obvious crime. This would shame their supporters and be a public relations nightmare.

b) Some caught terrorists would talk. This would be an intelligence coup and also might also be a public relations problem. Imagine how embarrasing a contrite former terrorist could be. They might even implicate Arafat

2. Attacking civilians is such an obvious crime that you perfer to have teens do it... An adult whoes seen the inside of Israel long enough is likely to realize that Israelis aren't the devils Arafat's propaganda paints them as. Better to keep your terrorists from getting old enough to think for themselves. Arafat is hardly the only terrorist leader to use this method. Think Pol Pot.

Badman asks: If Israel were to do as you suggest, pull back the IDF and end the occupation, do you think that the Palestinians would stop the suicide bombings?

The first suicide bombing was in 1993. Israel did not occupy the WB to stop suicide bombings. Instead, to add land to Israel at the expense of the inhabitants of the WB.

Badman says: No Israeli attempt at negotiation has ever been met with good faith, not even Barak's, and he was willing to offer the Palestinians pretty much everything they ever wanted except Greater Israel itself.

Pretty much everything you say? How silly is that? The Palestinians would not even get back all of the West Bank in Barak's proposal. Except greater Israel you say? Well, that's a good deal worse than merely silly.

Badman: It's not a secret that the Israeli's forced Arabs from their homes and out of the new country......and then you say:
On the other hand, during and after the 1948 war, over EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND Jews who had been peaceably living in the surrounding Arab states were forced from THEIR homes and fled to Israel.

Israel assimilated their refugees. They are no longer refugees, they are now Israeli citizens.

Makes sense to me that these Jews would leave Arab countries to migrate to a Jewish state who would be glad to make them citizens. But you say forced. Fine, don't pretend that the Israelis didn't play that too.

Badman says: The Arab world refuses to assimilate theirs, prefering to keep them poor and indoctrinated to use them as shock troops in a war the Arab world cannot win.

If the Arab world should be glad to accept destitute people in the millions to provide stolen land to Israel, then why shouldn't the U.S. be willing to accept millions of destitute Latin Americans looking to find a better life?

The history of the region and the decisions that were made have brought us to this: The state of Israel was born and the Arabs did not like it, they were unable to do anything about it and made a series of stupid decisions that got a lot of people killed. In 1967 Israel conquered and occupied the West Bank. If any posters here cannot accept the fact that after that the Israelis began to take land from people setting on it and giving it to Israeli settlers, then we might as well end this here. It's a fact, deal with it. What is the plan? Palestinians kill Israelis and Israelis kill Palestinians. Israel has all the power. Whatever they decide can be carried out. Apparently they have decided to leave things the way they are and complain.

Interesting interview,

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/380986.html

Israel has all the power. Whatever they decide can be carried out. Apparently they have decided to leave things the way they are and complain.

A gang that terrorizes with guns can be just as oppressive (or more) than a gang that terrorizes with tanks.

It's nonsense to claim that Israel has all the power. They don't have the ability to make peace as long as Palestinians prefer war...

The only way the Israeli could force the issue would be to use their superior weapons to massacre or ethnically cleanse and they're not willing to drop their morals that low.

Wrapper you ignored all of the points that invalidate your arguements.

Arafat always says that his final goal is complete conquest. Any truce is part of "the phased plan."

He explicitly says that he sees himself as Muhammad, Jerusalem as Mecca and the Israelis as the Quraysh - and Muhammad made a truce with the Quraysh then slaughtered all of them.

This is a quote from a speech "I see this agreement [oslo] as being no more than the agreement signed between our Prophet Muhammad and the Quraysh in Mecca."

The polls show that Arafat's indocrination has worked. Palestinians support war continuing even after the creation of a state - until Israel no longer exists.

If no concessions can bring peace, but rather just enable the war against Israel to be more effective, how can you say that "Israel has all the power?"

Israel has the ability to regain moral standing by giving back land taken in 1967. Read the link.

Israel has all the power.

Kim Jong Ill completely has all the power in North Korea. He controls every little thing that happens. To the extent possible, he controls what people think.

Yassir Arafat can be said to completely dominate Palestine. To the extent possible he controls what children learn, what people say, what people think.

Ariel Sharon can put up road blocks, he can shoot at combatents, he can have places searched (if he moves enough soldiers in), he can send soldier to occupy and try to impose a curfew...

But by comparison to Arafat, it sure doesn't look like Sharon has all the power.

As I said before the only way the Israeli could force the issue would be to use their superior weapons to massacre or ethnically cleanse and they're not willing to drop their morals that low.

"Israel has the ability to regain moral standing by giving back land taken in 1967. Read the link."

You're making me very tired. I read that article days ago, and obviously I understood it better than you did. I don't have the energy to write another essay on history from a Palestinian vs. Israeli perspective, and the lack of moral high ground...

For now I'll say that I once followed a bunch of links from Palestinian sites to a story about how the Israelis expelled an innocent Palestinian village.

It was really shocking.

What was shocking was that the Palestinians admitted that they were anything but innocent. They fought - then the town surrendered - then after surrendering they tricked 50 Israeli soldiers into an ambush and killed them.

No I haven't been clear. What was shocking was that they admitted to acting entirely in bad faith without admitting any moral culpability, and still blamed the Israelis 100% and called for the destruction of Israel.

A sane leader would have tried to save the peace by punishing the soldiers who violated the truce. That village did nothing of the sort - I think that in their philosophy Jews are unworthy of honest agreements and no Muslim should be punished for killing a Jew.

In that article Morris said that Israelis had no choice but to expell some Palestinians if they wanted a secure state. I think my example gives some context of how this might be.

Even Morris is now willing face the fact that there is no peace to make, and that all Israel can hope to do at this point is to protect it's citizens.

Israel has a duty to protect the lives of it's people.

You say that Israel can "regain the moral high ground"

Excuse me, the Palestinians have never, done anything that made them worthy of holding any moral high ground. They've made moral blunders at every single step.

What good would it do to give up some small villages to a group that would just claim this as proof that terrorist war is working, continue attacking and use the new land as platforms for attack?

The only point of view from which this would be "regaining the moral high ground" is a point of view based on believing lies and distortions about both the past, and MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY about the present.

josh says: Israel has a duty to protect the lives of it's people.

How's that working out for them josh?

josh says: Excuse me, the Palestinians have never, done anything that made them worthy of holding any moral high ground. They've made moral blunders at every single step.

That's absolutely true. By all means let's let the Palestinians set the bar as you are clearly saying.

The Palestinians are violent, stubborn, grievance obsessed and even primitive but most of the world agrees they are human and deserve the same rights as the Israelis.

What is the Israeli plan?

"josh says: Israel has a duty to protect the lives of it's people.

How's that working out for them josh? "

Better than it would be if the IDF weren't doing their job. For every suicide bomber who gets through, the IDF stop at least ten. If Fatah/Hamas had their way, there would be bombings in Israel every hour.

"Makes sense to me that these Jews would leave Arab countries to migrate to a Jewish state who would be glad to make them citizens. But you say forced."

They WERE forced. Egypt is now Judenrein, Jews are not allowed to live there. Ditto Jordan. Ditto Saudi Arabia. Ditto Lebanon. Ditto Syria. Ditto Lybia. And yet Israel, with a population of six million, has a million Arab citizens - many of them Muslims.

"If the Arab world should be glad to accept destitute people in the millions to provide stolen land to Israel -"

Stop right there. Get some facts into your head. The land was not stolen - most of it was bought and paid for by Israelis, and the rest was apportioned to Israel BY THE UNITED NATIONS. Israel was created by a UN resolution. Its creation has the legitimacy of international law.

"then why shouldn't the U.S. be willing to accept millions of destitute Latin Americans looking to find a better life?"

Um...this is a complete non-sequitur. I'm going to ignore it. The truth is that enough money flows into Palestine from the surrounding Arab countries (and from the UN) that they should be able to use it to build up their own economy. But that money comes with strings attached - the surrounding Arab countries expect the Palestinians to use it to keep up the fight against Israel, rather than make better lives for themselves.

"What is the Israeli plan?"

To build the fence. Once Palestinians cannot enter Israel to blow up children on schoolbuses, maybe (MAYBE) they'll start turning toward their energies towards making their own country better for themselves and their children.

I love that question that Wrapper keeps asking:

What is the Israeli plan?

I will tell you what I think it is. Genocide. Plain and simple. All of you blind , arrogant people that think you are great mid-eastern scholars. You people have no idea. Have you ever heard of Zionism. Kinda rhymes with Nazism. Josh Scholar is the true brainwashed soul in this whole comment board. I have read all of your thoughts and opinions and it amazes me how some of you are so smart, or appear to be, but alas, know so little. Face reality people. I will tell you my thoughts;

Reem al-Reyashi, blew herself up, left two kids without a mother. Yes I admit, idiot. You want to help the Palestinian cause and get rid of the Zionist terrorist that are occupying your country, stealing your land, building an apartheid wall, oppressing your people and committing war crimes every minute of the day in the eyes of the world, then you need to stay around for your children. Teach them as they grow to become educated and one day educators. The Palestinians have world opinion on their side. This is a great asset that should be used to help they're cause. Teach your children how to develope the tools nessecary to fight the Zionist aggression. No matter how you put it Josh Scholar, or how you try to cover it up or how you try to justify it or sugar coat it, it is an illegal occupation that is being fought in war where the occupiers are millitarily superior, but the will of the palestinians not to give in and become slaves of this criminal occupying army will prevail. I honestly believe that.

The Palestinians want freedom, so did the Americans in the revolutionary war. And the Americans were severly outnumbered by a millitary far more supperior, but is it not amazing how the will and want for freedom prevails.

Get real Josh Scholar. Wake up. The Isralei's are headed for self destruction. The EU poll itself state that a majority of people believe that "the biggest threat to world peace is Israel". Let me guess , they are wrong and you are right.

I get sick and tired of people calling Palestinians terrorists. I hear that Israel had its own share of "terrorist" when it was trying to fight for an independent state. I beleive a former isralei prime Minister blew up the King David hotel at some point. The explosion killed several people including women and children that were staying in the hotel as they were visiting their soldier husbands and fathers who were in the British Army at the time. Man , you really want to help the Israeli cause you chant about, figure out a way that israel will just get out of the West Bank.

On closure, I will say this, Israel and America facinate me. They can invade your land, kill your people and take over your government and because you try to fight back, and you do not wear a uniform, you do not have rank and a tank then by all means your are a terrorist. Get Real and get out. Pure and simple.

The day will come, maybe not in our lifetimes, but someday, the Israeli's will be held accountable for the crimes that they commit against the palestinian people.

I love that question that Wrapper keeps asking:

What is the Israeli plan?

I will tell you what I think it is. Genocide. Plain and simple. All of you blind , arrogant people that think you are great mid-eastern scholars. You people have no idea. Have you ever heard of Zionism. Kinda rhymes with Nazism. Josh Scholar is the true brainwashed soul in this whole comment board. I have read all of your thoughts and opinions and it amazes me how some of you are so smart, or appear to be, but alas, know so little. Face reality people. I will tell you my thoughts;

Reem al-Reyashi, blew herself up, left two kids without a mother. Yes I admit, idiot. You want to help the Palestinian cause and get rid of the Zionist terrorist that are occupying your country, stealing your land, building an apartheid wall, oppressing your people and committing war crimes every minute of the day in the eyes of the world, then you need to stay around for your children. Teach them as they grow to become educated and one day educators. The Palestinians have world opinion on their side. This is a great asset that should be used to help they're cause. Teach your children how to develope the tools nessecary to fight the Zionist aggression. No matter how you put it Josh Scholar, or how you try to cover it up or how you try to justify it or sugar coat it, it is an illegal occupation that is being fought in war where the occupiers are millitarily superior, but the will of the palestinians not to give in and become slaves of this criminal occupying army will prevail. I honestly believe that.

The Palestinians want freedom, so did the Americans in the revolutionary war. And the Americans were severly outnumbered by a millitary far more supperior, but is it not amazing how the will and want for freedom prevails.

Get real Josh Scholar. Wake up. The Isralei's are headed for self destruction. The EU poll itself state that a majority of people believe that "the biggest threat to world peace is Israel". Let me guess , they are wrong and you are right.

I get sick and tired of people calling Palestinians terrorists. I hear that Israel had its own share of "terrorist" when it was trying to fight for an independent state. I beleive a former isralei prime Minister blew up the King David hotel at some point. The explosion killed several people including women and children that were staying in the hotel as they were visiting their soldier husbands and fathers who were in the British Army at the time. Man , you really want to help the Israeli cause you chant about, figure out a way that israel will just get out of the West Bank.

On closure, I will say this, Israel and America facinate me. They can invade your land, kill your people and take over your government and because you try to fight back, and you do not wear a uniform, you do not have rank and a tank then by all means your are a terrorist. Get Real and get out. Pure and simple.

The day will come, maybe not in our lifetimes, but someday, the Israeli's will be held accountable for the crimes that they commit against the palestinian people.

Any of you that think that Rachel Curries death was an accident you need to do some deep soul searching. She was murdered intentially by the Israeli terrorist organization, also called the IDF.

It's Rachel Corrie, not Currie. And when you say intentially, I assume you mean intentionally.

No matter. Rachel Corrie stepped in front of a moving bulldozer while "protecting" the home of a known terrorist.

Yes Michelle, that gives people the right to kill her. I agree, she was protecting the home of the family of a known terrorist. But is it ok that they crushed her with a bull dozer?

What part of "stepped in front of a moving bulldozer" do you not understand?

Michelle, maybe you should be a grammer teacher since you are so worried about my spelling and leave politics to the people that do not think "intentionally" killing a female peace activist is ok because she was protecting the home of someone who was fighting apartheid aggresion.

Get real, you mean if you step in front of something or someone then they have the right to kill you? Are you serious.

"protecting the home of someone who was fighting apartheid aggresion"

Is that what they're calling them these days? I didn't realize "homicide bomber" had gone out of fashion already.

Oh, and do you think it's ok for a member of Hamas to kill children who are just sitting on a bus minding their own business?

Michele, No I do no think that its ok to kill children. I have children of my own. Anyone that kills children innocent or not, deserves to die. I am not justifying the tactics they are using. It is barbaric. I swear every time I see a image on TV of a bus blown to pieces and childrens bodies lying there, it kills me, but the same when I see a palestinian child killed because he or she was an innocent bystander that happened to be walking on the same street that the IDF was performing a "targeted killing". The Israeli's even admit it. They are will to hurt innocent children to acheive their goal. I think they call it collateral damage. Is that ok Michele? Why? Because the IDF have a uniform and are called an Army. Yuo cannot justify it. No matter what you say or how you put it, the Israeli's are just as barbaric as Hamas is. Always have been , always will be.

"Michele, No I do no think that its ok to kill children."

Then why do you go out of your way to defend Palestinian suicide bombings? The Palestinians are not "freedom fighters". They do not import arms and fight the IDF. Instead, they send civilians into Israel to kill other civilians (which is a war crime, for those playing at home).

"The Israeli's even admit it. They are will to hurt innocent children to acheive their goal."

The Palestinian leaders defend themselves by surrounding themselves with civilians (which is also a war crime). Under the Geneva Convention, those deaths are the fault of the Palestinian leadership. If the Israelis were to refuse to attack the leaders, if they were to allow this horrible tactic to deter them, then they would be tacitly admitting their own defeat. Of course, the Palestinians count on the support of people like you, who are incapable of either reading the Geneva Convention or thinking rationally.

If the Palestinians truly were freedom fighters, I would support them. But the freedom they want is the freedom to enter Israel at will and kill at will. They do not have that right, and they never will.

Some of the debaters here might believe I hold the Palestinians in higher esteem than the Israelis. Not true at all. In fact quite the opposite.

What I don't like is the trouble the U.S. gets with linking ourselves to the Israelis when they are clearly in the wrong with regards tothe West Bank. Our weak protests to Israeli outrages makes it clear that right or wrong does not apply when the Israelis are the ones wrong.

Does anyone here think that 9-11 is not linked to Israeli actions? I imagine most of you don't, and won't allow yourself to even consider it.

The Israeli plan is to trade Israeli lives for stolen land for as long as they can hold on. They dare not make the Arabs citizens and they dare not pull the trigger of expulsion because that would finally move the U.S. to join the rest of the world in condemning their behavior.

....and in the U.S., sooner or later, some President will speak to the nation after we're once again attacked, and look in the camera, and lie by saying the perps hate freedom.

>Oh, and do you think it's ok for a member of Hamas to kill children who are just sitting on a bus minding their own business?

LOL. "I don't understand what those barbaric Native Americans are making such a fuss about. Killing pioneers is wrong, why can't they just settle down?"

Josh and others, you have presented a thoroughly white-washed version of Israeli history, straight out of a Leon Uris novel.

But let's assume your version of history is true. Heck, Muslim historians claim that Mohammed never fought an offensive war either, yet somehow he, like Israel, miraculously ended up in possession of a large swath of occupied territory, so perhaps there is some truth to it.

Israel's continued occupation of the Terrorities is still wrong. There needs to be a two-state solution and the burden of responsibility falls on the occupiers.

"Israel's continued occupation of the Terrorities is still wrong. There needs to be a two-state solution and the burden of responsibility falls on the occupiers."

Jesus H. Christ. How many times do we have to say this? THERE WAS A TWO-STATE SOLUTION - THE ORIGINAL PARTITION PLAN! The Israelis accepted that plan, it was the ARABS that rejected it and continue to reject it! Hello? Barak's desperate attempts at negotiations to END the conflict ring a bell?

And don't you worry your pretty head - Israel's occupation of the Territories will end soon enough. They can't get that fence up fast enough for me.

Oh, and any Muslim historian who claims Mohammad never fought an offensive war is an out-and-out liar.

anonymous says:

And don't you worry your pretty head - Israel's occupation of the Territories will end soon enough. They can't get that fence up fast enough for me.

Obviously you don't know what you're talking about. The occupation will end when Israel dismantles their settlements and withdraws FROM the West Bank.

Barak's "desparate attempts" returned portions of the West Bank and left the settlements intact. It was not a serious offer.

Oh. Oh, Barak's offer was not serious. Thanks for telling us, oh he-who-was-not-in-the-room-at-the-time. If Barak's offer was unacceptable, why didn't Arafat make a counter-offer? That's what you DO in negotiations - your opponent makes an offer, you make a counter-offer, and you go back and forth until you arrive at a deal you both can agree with. Only Arafat flatly refused every one of Barak's offers. No counter-offers, no "this is what I want", just flat refusals. Even three months later, when Barak was willing to offer even more land - the answer was silence.

Why?

Because Arafat couldn't have made a counter-offer - there was a chance the Israelis might say yes, and with American witnesses present, there would be no way for Arafat to back out. Arafat has spent years telling his people that they will soon "see the sea", he simply could not go back to Palestine and tell the Palestinians that he had made peace with the hated Jews.

So no negotiation is possible at least until Arafat dies. Until then, the Israelis will do whatever they have to to minimize their own casualties.

Michele, the house Rachel Corrie was protecting hid a weapons tunnel (tunnel accross the border).

This topic is about to roll off the bottom of the blog. Bookmark it if you have anything more to add.

"The world is made of Love and Peace! Love and Peace!"

Seemed appropriate to the discussion. That's Vash the Stampede in case you weren't sure.

Bandwidth and art stolen from http://www.ptocheia.net

Gustav, after arguing on the internet for some years, your sort of arguements are familar to me.

I can't tell for certain whether you're a Muslim supporter of the Palestinians or just some Anti-Semite from a backward totalitarian country who has no concepts like tolerance, freedom or compromise. There's little difference, but I will address you as a totalitarian Muslim to save time.

After reading all of your comments I accuse you of being stuck in the idiology of a society that is so barbaric that it makes peace impossible.

You don't have any concept of peaceful coexistance.

You don't have any concept of compromise.

You're also a dupe to the most destructive and cynical propaganda in history. You say Israelis kill children. You haven't noticed that Arafat and the other terrorists try their hardest to get Palestinian children killed so that they can make propaganda from it?

Doesn't that piss you off? It doesn't because you can't EVER blame Muslim. Only infidels are ever the enemy, only infidels are ever the oppressor. Poor Saddam was just a victim, right? And when it becomes obvious that he was the oppressor, Muslims start grumbling that he must have been working for Massad (Israel's spy agency)! Ignorant, ignorant ignorant.

You cannot see others as equal to yourself (I would have said that you don't see them as human, but you don't have the concept that all human live is precious).

Your "enemy" is perfectly willing to make peace, but you refuse peace while blaming all of the suffering on those who are perfectly willing to have peace.

Your people have openly dreamed of genocide since at least the 30's, with no voices condemning such evil talk - yet in order to save face you project your own evil intentions on others.

Israelis just want normal lives, yet you accuse them of wanting genocide.

You don't know the meaning of words like "freedom". Palestinians, living under the thumb of terrorists who kill anyone who dissents are refered to a fighting for "freedom". No, the terrorists they're fighting for make them slaves.

But that's not what they're fighting for, having no concept of freedom. They're fighting for revenge, they're fighting for bigotry and they're proxies for the rest of the Arab/Persian states.

They're paid to fight so to provide the dishonest media of the Middle East with a bloody circus act. They're the circus that keep's the Arabs who live in bondage distracted from the oppressors who share their countries - it's not 5 million Jews trying to survive next door who keep 200 million Gulf Mulsims oppressed, its their own religious fanatics and their own governments in their own countries.

Israel isn't "headed for self-destruction".

They may well be destroyed. Iran's president Rafsanjani promised that the moment Iran had nuclear weapons, they would nuke Israel. He admitted that Iran and the Arab states would be hurt by Israel's nukes, he said it would be worth it to be rid of the Jews.

He's not president anymore...

It's more likely that Israel will be attacked by terrorist carrying bombs from Iran or paid for by Saudi Arabia, but no one will claim responsibility.

In any case that's not "self-destruction" that's the genocide that you pretend lies in the hearts of Jews rather than your own.

Crimes are committed by criminals, not imposed on oneself. Next you'll start claiming that rape victims rape themselves.

I haven't read all the comments so perhaps I'm not the first to post this, but I saw in the Hebrew press this morning that the woman who blew herself up at the Erez checkpoint was atoning for adultery in the way her culture demands: with her death. Her husband encouraged her to commit suicide and drove her to the checkpoint, and she received the explosive belt from none other than her lover. She did a double deed: redeemed her family's honor and killed a few Jews while she was at it.

So when does her paramour get to pay his share of the price? Answer: he doesn't. In that culture and that mindset the woman, and only the woman, is to blame.

I just checked The Jerusalem Post, Haaretz and Irael National News and couldn't find the story.

Maybe it hasn't been translated into English yet.

Do you have a link?

Debka's story is different, though of course equally pathetic.

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=768

Found a blogger with the story (or gossip),
www.imshin.blogspot.com
unfortunately her sources are a hebrew language message board and an arabic language radio station,so I can't read them.

>the woman who blew herself up at the Erez checkpoint was atoning for adultery in the way her culture demands: with her death.

Well, that would explain it. I took one look at her photo with those come-hither cheeks and the veil parted just-so, and thought:

she's a sexy little strumpet.
Obviously a man-eater from the J-Lo mold.

The bottom line is that Israel was created on other people's land, against their wishes. Yes, that was how America, Australia and New Zealand were founded, but that just isn't done anymore in the 20th century. We expect more from people.

Uganda was one of the other choices seriously considered for the location of the Jewish state- the arrogance of the original planners is truly breathtaking. If they had decided on Uganda, I'm sure we would be arguing today over whether there were any native Ugandans who had a right to return to their country.

But fine, Israel is there. A fait accompli, like the colonization of the U.S. or South Africa. Israelis should have at least have the decency to understand that the moral responsibility is on them, to make it up to the Palestinians - as the U.S. has tried to do for Native Americans.

Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories and hand them over to be policed by the United Nations. Heavily, heavily, heavily policed - whatever Israeli security demands.

The only question I have is who benefits from the current situation? Perhaps Arafat, maybe in the short term the settlers and Sharon scores some political points. But in the long term, the continuing occupation debilitates everyone - Israelis included.

Coming from Canada and having taken a good Canadian and American history class in High School in Canada my first reaction to
"as the U.S. has tried to do for Native Americans."
was a horse laugh... I don't think we tried harder than the Israelis.

In any case I place most of the blame on the Arabs. You can't make peace with someone who doesn't want peace. And good intentions give you no leverage if the enemy has a society that's bigoted and xenophobic in a hostile way and too totalitarian to reach though its press.

Also your use of the phrase "the continuing occupation" shows that you've been fooled by some of the propaganda ... Look whenever a member of the Arab Press or Fatah or Hamas or Islamic Jihad talk among themselves they use phrases like "occupied lands" TO MEAN THE WHOLE OF ISRAEL... Always.

Westerners translate this into "the continuing occupation" half the time not realizing that they're destroying the message. Yes it's true that Arafat and a few around him do lie and use ambiguous phrases but for years whenever they did that Arafat would IMMEDIATELY make a speech to make it clear that he was lying to the foriegners - so he wouldn't lose popularity with his own people. He doesn't have to do that anymore. Everyone has got the message by now and they lie themselves...

So "continueing occupation" is a code that the BBC and other foriegn press pretend means checkpoints, and the Israeli army looking for terrorists and tanks around Arafat's compound... But the Palestinians all know that it means the existance of Israel. That's what they were taught in school - and though it makes no sense they don't even try to argue.

As for "who benefits," obviously the only people who benefit are totalitarian leaders all over the middle east who use Israel as a scape goat and distraction, and also Islamic religious fanatics who find that violence and hatred are entertaining enought to pack their pews.

Anyone who says the Israel benefits from having it's citizens blown up... Oh Jesus. Let me stop for a moment and remind you that they've caught terrorists trying to plant nerve gas in a hospital... A terrorist who snuck into a Kibbutz full of lefty, Palestinian supporting Jews and shot two children in their beds and the mother is a hero with a High School basket ball team named in honor of his massacre.

Anyone who thinks Israel benefits from this constant danger and gneocidal hatred doesn't understand the situation, and let me tell you, Israelis DO understand the situation.

And anyone who SAYS that Israeli politicians benefit (this idea came from the Arab Press by the way - you read it there all the time) anyone who SAYS this is just lying antisemite who's opinion can be immediately discounted.

I should have been clearer. What I meant to say in that last paragraph is that anyone who says that Zionists are deliberately causing this is just...

You guys kill me. Anytime someone speaks out against Isralei foreign policy or any type if Israeli actions, you automatically label it "anti - semitism" Give us a break man. Do you even know what it means. I am not a Muslim, I am an American, a christian who has several jewish friends. Josh Scholar, you do not have a clue. And this totalitarion country you speak of is the great USA. But you are right , it has been become a totalitarion state because of people like you. I will refuse to discuss this with you any longer as you are well beyond forming any type of reasoning. You can get upset and call all types of names and throw out all types of racial slurs, but the fact remains, and as the world is opening its eyes and finally, finally wakening up to see the truth behind Israeli aggresion. My man, its only a matter if time...

Uhm, ok... I don't see any sense or logic in what you say Gustav, but we can't all be blessed the ability to make sense.

Heh, "with the ability to make sense"

Oh wait, Gustav did make an arguement:
"Have you ever heard of Zionism. Kinda rhymes with Nazism."

That was your arguement. If it "Kinda rhymes with Nazism" then it must be genocidal.

Your politics is entirely made from the Chewbacca defense. Whata maroon!

Here look at the monkey , look at the silly monkey.

The defense rests.

Sigh, I have to learn to preview... italics don't go from one paragraph to the next in this blog, darn it. The whole previous was supposed to be italicized. All a quote from the end of the Chewbacca defence.

...Here look at the monkey , look at the silly monkey.

The defense rests.

By the way "gustav" I notice that not only did you not address what I actually said, you purposefully misrepresented it.

I challenge you to find even a single instance of me "throw out all types of racial slurs."

By the way, my saying that Arab society is "bigoted, xenophobic and totalitarian" is critism but certainly not a racial slur.

I'm not convinced that anything I deduced about you was wrong... You're either professional propagandist or an amatuer, because misrepresnting an arguement in hopes that no one reads it isn't the way honest people argue.