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a little help from my friends

Someone help me out with this, please. I'm just too weary to write anything but a string of curses.

Excerpts:


That what happened was a tragedy can't be denied. That it was a lesson that America needed to learn can not be denied either, and sadly, it was.

She's [meaning me] angry at the people who hijacked the planes, the people who sent them there, the people who paid for it, and mostly (it seems) at anyone who utters one "anti-american" word in reference to the events. I suppose that means she's gonna be angry at me too, and that's a shame...

The people who hijacked the planes, the people who sent them there, and the people who've paid for it all......they are religious idealists and bigots....to blinded by there own hatred to see what they are doing. Much like the American government.

But the instituions that comprise the American government, that's a different matter. They've committed far to many crimes to be forgotten. Literally millions dead at their hands, entire countrysides laid waste and baren due to their presence, sovereign nations and cultures interferred with to suit American purposes.

What I am saying, is that America (the governent) has waged war upon the world for a long time now, and America (the people) have done nothing about it. I'm saying that it's not surprising that religious and extremist groups are starting to do to America...exactly what America has done to them.

At the same time, there was an undercurrent of optimism. Now, at least, Americans would come to understand how people overseas felt when the US military came to town, when the CIA played with there goverments and their destinies. Now Americans would understand, and empathise, and hold there own leaders accountable. It didn't take long for me to realize the futility of my hopes.

You're right sweetheart, it was no ordinary day. It was a day when everything should have changed. And it did....alas not for the better. You are right to remember your dead, but unless you remember theirs, they will keep on coming back to haunt you.

I don't know what to say right now. Someone say something for me, please?

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Listed below are links to weblogs that reference a little help from my friends:

» The terrorists have another fan from Too Much To Dream
You know, it's really sad when you see someone proudly wearing the Hat of Ass. Well, no, actually, it's hilarious. It's been a long time since I saw someone write something as sanctimonious yet retarded as: But the instituions that... [Read More]

» "She was asking for it" from .:/One Little Victory\:.
Well, courtesy of Michele at A Small Victory (no relation) we have this little nugget of joy: The people who hijacked the planes, the people who sent them there, and the people who've paid for it all......they are religious idealists... [Read More]

» a little help from my friends from Ks Weblog
There is nothing to say except they are a f*cking idiot!  Someone help me out with this, please. I’m just too weary to write anything but a string of curses. Excerpts:   That what happened was a tragedy can’t... [Read More]

» Useful Idiots from LilacRose
Just a warning...there is much uncharitable ranting ahead. If you'd rather just skip this, I'll understand. This rant has been... [Read More]

» The blogosphere, a mad dog, and pure evil from Wackypenguin
I'm not going to discuss this post. It very obviously displays very narrow-minded ignorance, and a warped perception of America's international relations. When i read this, i thought "this guy is really making an ass out of himself". I was annoyed by i... [Read More]

» The blogosphere, a mad dog, and pure evil from Wackypenguin
What enraged me far more is much of the blogosphere's reaction to this guy's article. [Read More]

» I was f**king wrong, OK! from Tiger: Raggin' & Rantin'
I said something about Robin Williams Peace Plan in a comment to this post on michele's blog, a small victory. In one of the following comments to that post, I found this entry:Whatta maroon. Anyone actually sitting and watching the... [Read More]

Comments

This just departs too far from reality to rate any kind of a coherent response.

Someone that has that twisted a view of the world, and the activities of the United States lacks any clear frame of recognizable reference to begin such a discussion.

It is the consideration of the United States, completely out of context, operating in a vaccum, without any acknowledgment of the world in which the sins alleged took place. With a certainty, based on that vacuous perspective, of an inherent malice and ill intent by the very Americans around them, and concentrated in its leadership. A misplaced, misanthropic projection, with an unrealistic, simple, yet naive desire for an unworkable utopia, simply because that's the way things 'ought' to be.

Almost to the level of a state of denial.

Nice Wind Rider. I was just gonna say sort of the same thing except I was gonna condense it into, "What a dumb ass!"

Regrettably, it comes back to Robin Williams Peace Plan. We stop supporting the world and let them support themselves. We stop allowing people from other countries into ours, teaching them how to be doctors and such, and let them stay wherever they were born. We stop sending food to starving people and let them fend for themselves. We stop holding Israel back and let takeover the whole Middle-East. Yes, America does sometimes stick its nose where it does not belong, but we have never willy-nilly killed civilians in any country to make a point about how much we hate such country and their way of life. Our way of life is not perfect, our government is not perfect, but we always have the best intentions for peaceful solutions. The people of the US never did anything to merit the type of attack on innocent people that occurred on 9/11. There is no excuse for it. All Americans believe that, not just those in our government. You are wrong if you think that. I have no hatred for anyone, any place who worships goodness and peace, but those who practice hatemongery and believe they have the right to kill others who do not worship God, Allah, Buddha, or whoever in the correct way are not people worthy of admiration. They are not humans, because humans would not be so lackful of compassion for the rights of others to be free from oppression and persecution.

Well his use of "sweetheart" was probably a little unwarranted, if that's what you mean.

My interpretation of what he said is that in order to make sense of anything you have to view it in context. Maybe you and he are actually talking about different things then: You are talking about a specific incident, how it affected (and affects) you and your view of the world, etc. He is looking at a broader set of things, including that incident, but citing various events and forces that may have led to that incident.

My feeling - having never been to your site before - is that you disagree with his stance. I would be surprised, however, if you disagreed with the basic premise that any action is the result of other actions (whether or not you agree with the particulars of his screed). Indeed, events do not happen in a vacuum.

Personally, I think it's valuable to ask "Why?" in any situation. If you should reach conclusions that are different from someone else's then should that be cause for anger? I don't know anyone who wasn't affected in some way by the event in question.

Done (at the site).

Not that it'll make any difference.

Ordinarily, I like to engage with people who disagree with me. But sometimes, you can tell that there's just no point.

It's like trying to argue with a fundamentalist. If you don't agree that the Bible is the starting point for any discussion, you're pissing in the wind.

Likewise, if you know that you have to go so deeply into a person's core belief structure to even begin to have a discussion, why bother?

Anyway, I was suitably haughty and annoyed.

"My feeling - having never been to your site before - is that you disagree with his stance."

Better not try to pull the wool over this one's eyes, Michele. Dude/fem's got x-ray vision! [/END SARCASM]

As for kfx, yeah, no other country or culture has ever slaughtered millions in the history of the world ever ever. All those dead people at the hands of the communists? Capitalist lies! All those dead Jews in Europe and the Middle East at the hands of Nazis, Muslim Jew-haters, and so forth -- Zionist propaganda! All those European wars? What wars? Europe is populated solely by shy hobbits who hide whenever the Big Americans in their jackboots come stomping by.

And so on... Feh. I'm done with such people. They have to live with themselves -- that must be some kind of hell.

"Literally millions dead at their hands, entire countrysides laid waste and baren due to their presence, sovereign nations and cultures interferred with to suit American purposes."

Like the Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, what was once East Germany, Lithuania, Taiwan, South Korea, Panama, FRANCE.... It's comments like that that make me wonder why we give out billions in foreign aid.

"...they are religious idealists and bigots....to blinded by there(sic) own hatred to see what they are doing. Much like the American government." I think that says more about his prejudices than those in our government. (And yes, I read his "some of my best friends are Americans" line in his original post.) "...when the CIA played with there(sic) goverments(sic) and their destinies." I'm guessing his knowledge of history is about as good as his knowledge of English.

You know, the last coup I've heard of that the CIA was behind was in Chile in '73. I haven't heard of any since. And it's not like they're great at hiding their involvement. They've pulled some boners since then (arming the mujahideen), but it's hardly a case of "America (the governent(SIC!)) has waged war upon the world". What little cleaning up our act needed has been done. Try looking up the Church committee of the '70s. We understood. Nearly 30 freaking years ago. Asshat.

I can think of no country that donates as much money, effort, and blood to the causes of freedom and humanity as the United States. It's one of the reasons I'm working to become a citizen. The logical jump between mentioning the cowardly, and ultimately unsuccesful attacks on 9/11 and...well that's just it. In this idealogue's world it "goes without saying" that the US is guilty my personal favourite, "interefering with sovreign nations". Like say, Nazi Germany, or massgrave creating Iraq. I'd ignore college-prof swallowing tripe like this for the childish banter that it remains.

Feh, indeed. When some intellectual midget says "The 9/11 attacks were awful, but.." I know I can safely tune out, right there. They don't get it: THERE IS NO 'BUT.' Try these: "Dying of cancer is awful, but..."
"Advanced syphilis is unpleasant, but..."
"Being so destitute you eat out of dumpsters is difficult, but..." I know; the ignorant-by-choice crowd can not be reached with mere logic.

America has waged war on the world? So America is behind the Islamic fundamentalism that has murdered Americans and waged war on us for a quarter of a century? Interesting. And, we'd "understand how people overseas felt when the US military came to town?" Um, you mean like South Koreans felt in 1950? The French in 1944? Panamanian victims of Noriega in 1989? Kuwaitis in 1991?

Whoever that moron is, he'll never get an "Enemy of Indymedia" button.

Michele--the Emperor fisked the idiot for you...

I dropped my two cents into his gumball machine. I hope he enjoys the hates, er, hits.

He does have a point. After all, September 11th was an understandable response to our ruthless bombing campaign against Saudi Arabia.

Also, if we had only let the Soviet Union stretch itself out like it wanted to, without getting all uptight about missiles off our shore, and huge chunks of humanity getting swallowed up by the most murderous ideology in the history of the human race, the world would be a much nicer place right now.

If we would just listen with open minds and hearts to the message of Al Qaeda, and seriously consider embracing the Religion of Peace, rather than all this silly fighting stuff, we could cool off this over heated world once and for all.

Let's all try and be a little more open-minded.

RSM

Jesus, what a fucking e-TARD.

Whatta maroon. Anyone actually sitting and watching the events of September 11 with even the smallest "undercurrent of optimism" is a despicable human.

On a side note, that's the second time today I've heard someone touting the "Robin Williams Peace Plan" like it's some real thing. It's not.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/williams.asp

Imagine the world without the United States:

World War I lasts another 18 months and the Germans finally lose. The Versailles Treaty is incredibly harsh on the Germans. Hitler still rises, and is still elected Chancellor. Hitler still takes power after the Reichstag fire.

Russia still goes commie. World War II still starts due to German expansionism, but this time, Germany has no hesitation in taking out Britain, which can't defend itself without Lend Lease. After defeating Britain, Germany still invades Russia and Russia is unable to defend itself without the vast material assistance that the (now non-existant) US was able to provide. Germany is able to take troops from France to use on the Eastern Front, since Britain does not need to be contained there, nor are Britain (or the non-existent US) fighting the Germans in North Africa.

After millions of casualties, the Germans and Russians reach a stalemate, and new borders are drawn between them at the Ural Mountains. All of the Jews of Europe are murdered.

In the East, Japan invades China and Korea, and slaughters millions. Japan then invades the Phillipines, Southeast Asia, and, after consolidating these conquests, and not having to defend against American counterattacks, continues on and invades Australia, eventually defeating that country.

Japan and China fight for years and wind up in a stalemate, after millions more are killed. Germany and Italy divide the Northern section of the African Continent, and the Southern portion is left to tribal wars.

Eventually, trade with whatever remaining democracies exist (what arose instead of the US? Maybe just remained part of the British Empire until Britain surrenders to the Germans, then becomes a colony of Germany, with the same brutal oppression meted out here in North America as is meted out throughout the remainder of the world) is choked off, the people revolt, and these last vestiges of democracy are replaced by strongman-led governments.

The state of the world in 1960, without the US, if the history above had occurred? All of North America, all of Europe, all of Asia, most of Africa, Central America, and parts of South America; all of them live under the nightmare that Orwell predicted in 1984 . . . the image is that of a black, hobnailed boot, forever stamping on an upturned human face. No freedom exists in the world, only murder and oppression. And of course, the Arabs, having been allies of the Nazis, remain as the sordid dictatorships they've always been. No Jews remain on Earth.

Pretty far-fetched? Not really. Look at a map sometime in a history book that shows the farthest reaches in 1943 of the Germans and the Japanese empires. It was a very close run thing that the democracies eventually prevailed, and the reason the democracies prevailed was the Arsenal of Democracy, the United States of America.

In the last 100 years the U.S. has helped keep Western Europe free once, freed Western Europe once, won the Cold War (freeing Eastern Europe and a major portion of Asia), kept the international economy growing instead of stagnating under socialism/naziism/japanese imperialism/communism/South American BananaRepublicanism/Arab Despotism, helped Africa become more free, helped South America become much more democratic, and the same for Central America, defeated Japan and freed a large portion of Southeast Asia, and kept Australia free.

So, in a hundred years we've freed at least half of the world from utter tyranny. So, give us a break. This shit isn't easy! We'll free the rest of the world, starting with Afghanistan and Iraq, and moving on to the rest of the Arab world and eventually China and North Korea, and it probably won't take us but another 50 years. Not bad.

And why did we finally get off our asses after resting for ten years or so after the Cold War ended in glorious victory? 9/11, that's why. So, the rest of the world that we are now going to free benefits from our horrific losses on that day. The world does indeed become a better place, not a worse place as our shit-for-brains, historically ignorant commentator says.

The United States of America: Only the Greatest Force for Good in the World. Who would you rather have do the heavy lifting? The French!!?!?!?!??! They're not even strong enough to hoist a bar of soap!

Sharkman - A pretty reasonable analysis. May I correct you on two points:

1) World War I lasts another 18 months and the Germans finally lose. The Versailles Treaty is incredibly harsh on the Germans.

The Versailles treaty was incredibly harsh on the Germans. The economic hardship place on Germany help bring about the social situation that encouraged Hitler and the "National Socialists".

2) Workd War II - Japan ... invades Australia, eventually defeating that country

The first defeat Japan suffered in WWII was on the Kokoda Trail in New Guinea, where an Australian force (of mainly conscripts) stopped and turned back the Japanese army.

So it is written, so it shall be done:

http://www.analogmouse.com/blog/archives/000148.html

Not much more to add to that, except I think you could make a reasonable case for the phrase, "Advanced syphillis is unpleasant, but sex is great."

Literally millions dead at their hands, entire countrysides laid waste and baren due to their presence...

Leaving aside WWII---and yes, I will leave it aside---about the only places this is remotely true are Korea and Vietnam, and I'm not so sure about Korea.

I want to point out what no one who takes this stance ever seems to realize: there were no Vietnamese hijackers on those planes. No Chileans. No Panamanians, or Nicaraguans. No fossilized Japanese or Germans. No die-hard Russians.

No, those hijackers were people with whom we'd never fought a war, a people we'd never killed "millions" of, a people whose lands we'd never "laid waste and baren [sic]".

But, of course, this is all about Israel. The people on those planes hated Israel. Those poor Palestinians! They deserve a state! But, wait---this attack was planned while the US was brokering a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians were going to get their state.

So, in short, the most logical explanation is that the men on those planes attacked us because of their quarrel with another country which, at the time the attacks were being planned, looked as though it were going to be resolved!

[It is not, however, the correct explanation.]

The problem, which ought to be blindingly obvious to the meanest intelligence, is that every America-hating dickweed in the world wanted those men to act for him.

"I'm mad about Kyoto! Osama's boys were worried about global warming!"

"I'm mad about McDonald's and Starbuck's! Osama's boys are mad at the Golden Arches!"

"I'm mad about the ICC! Osama's boys want Osama tried in the Hague!" [Whoops, maybe not.]

We must recognize this rank stupidity and dishonesty when we see it.

How about:

"I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberry. Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time."

Feh, indeed. When some intellectual midget says "The 9/11 attacks were awful, but.." I know I can safely tune out, right there.

It's called Fraser's Law: everything before the "but" is bullshit. More examples:

"I am not a homophobe, but ..."

"I recognize Israel has a right to exist, but ..."

Sharkman:

That is incredibly scary! Just the thought of how close the world was to that kind of end is beyond frightening.

People should fall down on their knees before they go to bed each night, and thank whatever idol they worship that the U.S. has employed a light hand during the past couple of years. If we wanted to kill millions of people, who would stop us? Just think about a full launch from just one Ohio class SSBN--24 missles, ten MIRVs each. We haven't turned them all into razor blades, you know.

During WW2, out of a population of 110 million or so, this country had around 13 million serving under arms. In our time, we have maybe 1.2 % of the population serving in the armed forces.

The message for the slaves of Allah, the dirty anti-defense traitors within our own borders, and our self-interested fair-weather friends (who are still riding for free on our defense budget), is "lighten up." Imagine what it would be like if we got serious.

Interesting alternate history. I think the Brits would've held out without us. And I'm pretty sure the Australians would've defended themselves. But that might've been it.

The rest of the world might be a series of factions between National Socialist and Communist, and they might still be duking it out -- or at least unti the first one developed nukes.

Dear "KFX":
You are right. America did need to learn a lesson. For many years, we had been absorbed in ourselves, our own self-righteous beliefs about what the rest of the world wanted and needed. Steeped in an intellectual tradition that valued ambiguity and deference to evil, we watched as our government sunk deep into the morass of relativism. We gave money and sold weapons to men whose only thought was of power and glory for themselves.

No more. The tragedy, the shock, the murder that we witnessed on 9/11 has wakened this nation. No longer will the American people permit our government to finance and support the terrorist-loving regimes of Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Palestine. We will not, because we cannot.

You are right; for too long the government of the United States has upheld corrupt monarchs and dictators. In the interests of stability and anti-communism, we were forced to choose the lesser of two evils.

With the fall of Communism, our hands are unbound; with the end of the Clinton era, we are reawakening to our place in the world.

We are strong, and we seek the good. Our goal: democracy in the Middle East. We have learned that anything less will be fatal. Our world is too tightly connected in this modern age. The United States is no longer safe behind her oceans. Hate anywhere is a threat to peace everywhere now, so we will fight to end the hatemongerers' hold on power wherever they are.

And we will win.

I can do no better than a part of the 22nd comment at that site:
----
Have you noticed that not one post has supported you? You really ought to read some actual history. ... Posted by Pete
----

Ken, a comment on your correction: the Versailles treaty was harsh on the Germans, but they never adhered to it. The real problem was that Germany was never convinced that they had lost WWI; it took WWII to ram the point home.

This guy is the same guy who would blame himself if he got assraped by a gang of street thugs.

With ignorance and hatred towards America like that... this person should really consider a job in public education. :)

I suppose "asshat" goes without saying?

Sharkman, I also enjoyed the alternet history comment, but I'll add one more "correction". Most of it assumes that America doesn't exist, which is fine, but in the end you have Britain being conquered and those of us who live on this continent speaking German.

If America doesn't exist as in the continent is never formed, then there is nothing for them to control.

If America doesn't exist as in we never declare our independence from Britain, then Britain becomes a very, very powerful nation and the resources and manpower of America (US and Canada) are put to the war effort the moment Germany attacks. The other American colonies owned by France and Spain also become much more involved in supplying the free side of Europe with manpower and resources to defeat the Axis powers.

The main reason that Germany got as far as it did was that Hitler was smart enough to limit his ambition to much weaker countries. He developed an empire before trying to take on Britain and Russia. Then he got stupid and for some reason decided to attack on both fronts. He might have pulled that off if Hirohito had held on to his ambition for just a while longer.

I tried hard and I did my best, but I'm not sure that's really what's important after all. Anyway:

Um--duh:

Here.

FWIW, Philip K. Dick once wrote a book entitled "The Man in the High Castle," which deals with an alternate history of what happened when the axis powers won WWII. Mr. Dick was also the author of the books that were made into the following movies: Total Recall, Blade Runner, and Minority Report. The movies have "happy" endings. The books don't.

With regards to the original post, the only comment that I can make would be "What color is the sky in your world?"

I think Sharkman's alternate history should be viewed not as if the U.S. did not exist but if it sat out WW2 as the pacifist elements wanted prior to Pearl Harbor. Strangley similar to the butt holes who wanted us to sit out Op. Iraqi Freedom. I despise them to my very core.

Another thing that distracted Der Fuhrer from his territorial ambitions was his obsession with making various portions of Germany--and then, the other countries he controlled--"Juden Frei." Had he put off his plan of extermination until after the war, his chances of winning would have been greater. It's a scary thought.

People like the original poster should go off and beat themselves up--just smack themselves in the jaw, arms, legs and stomach. ("Oh, how I hate myself! I'm American. Ugh!") But leave the rest of us alone, and not subject us to their nonsense.

Sigh - I was offline yesterday and now KFX's comments section seems to be broken, at least it looks that way on my mac.

KFX is one of that small but really iditotic group of people who think that terrorism is educational. They think that a horrific mass murder will force people to see their point of view, that slaughter enlightens. That group of people includes terrorists and extremists on both sides - idiots like Jerry Falwell and Noam Chomsky who, right after 9/11 started screaming - see, this is what happens when you don't listen to me!

Anyway, this is what I was trying to post on his site.

KFX - On 9/11, America was attacked by Islamic extremists. In the past few decades, Islamic extremists have been responsible for the murder and enslavement of millions of people around the world. They've slaughtered and enslaved the Sudanese. They've murdered thousands of Egyptian Copts. they slaughter Hindus, Jews, Christians and Muslims.

When you hear about the deaths of those Sudanese, do you feel an undercurrent of optimism? Do you believe that their murder and enslavement will help them see the error of their ways, that it will make feel some justifiable guilt about their past sins?

Terrorism is not a teaching tool. Like bin Laden, you believe that random nihilistic violence will somehow enlighten the masses. This is wrong, it's cruel, and Sweetheart, it's a sign that you are a pitiful excuse for a human being.

[..ps. loved Sharkman's alternate history. Imagine what the world would be like if America ceased to exist now, or if it turned into KFX's isolationist ideal - it would probably be just as bad.]

"Now, at least, Americans would come to understand how people overseas felt when the US military came to town..."

People have usually been more relieved and thankful when the US military came to town than anything else. Conflict aside, I grew up on Air Force bases in Europe, and most of the locals seemed to be glad to have us. I'm will never cease to be shocked by people as ignorant and self-loathing as this person.

Asshat. Definitely. After a second reading, I'm leaning toward Assberet.

My heart broke that morning. It's still broken. That anyone felt "an undercurrent of optimism" in the midst of that carnage inflicted by nihilistic fascists makes my heart break a little bit more.

The world has not seen the full power and rage of the United States of America.
Hitler and Tojo got a bare glimpse, a fleeting glance at Dresden and Nagasaki. Even then we, as a nation, pulled our punches We were quite capable, and a majority of the citizenry would have supported, of turning both countries into Carthage. We could have slaughtered the survivors, we did not. We could have sown their fields with salt. We did not.
There is a substantial percentage of the world's one billion Moslems that have declared war on our very existance. They are implacable. They will accept nothing less than our deaths or our forcible conversion to Islam and Shari'a. They cannot be bargained with, nor reasoned with.
There are many who fail to see this stark reality but, unfortunately, they will. The people who fail to see that it's them or us are diminishing our ability to to prevent the next big attack. At some point even idiots like the writer of that asshatted screed will either see the dire peril or ... or what? The Islamofacists will kill us all if they are able. At some point in the very near future we must find a way to silence those who will prevent us from defending our very families.
It is with great trepidation that I view the near future. We fight an enemy that wants us dead and many within our ranks are on the other side. Before we can fight the war with the enemy without we may very well be forced into a war within.

"Imagine the world without the United States:

World War I lasts another 18 months and the Germans finally lose. The Versailles Treaty is incredibly harsh on the Germans. Hitler still rises, and is still elected Chancellor. Hitler still takes power after the Reichstag fire."

Me, I figure the Germans would not have lost WWI without us. The Kaiser would stay in office, keep upstart Austrian corporals firmly away from the reins of power, and ends up crushing the Soviets eventually (maybe with a little help from us... the Soviets would most certainly not be the lesser of two evils compared with the Kaiser! More likely we'd sit back and watch)

FYI,

Looks like KFX relented. Go see his last post. He even seemed to think we are trying to do the right thing in Iraq.

Calvin....I never relented, I clarified whar was admittitly an unlear first post...the points I made in the newest are the ones I was making all along.

It was NEVER about ideologies, terrorists or governments, it was about everyday common people and how they "feel".....not about what is, what they think is, and how that effects how they act....

My sorry too :(