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sticks and stones

A group of Vermont teen-agers threw rocks at a uniformed female Vermont National Guard sergeant last week, in the latest example of a service member facing hostility in the United States.

The teens blocked the sergeant as she went into a store and again on the way out, yelling obscenities at her along the way, Roosevelt said. The group also threw small stones at her car as she drove away, he added.

The sergeant said she believed the protesters had taken part in an anti-war demonstration in Montpelier that day. National Guard troops are often deployed to such events to help keep the peace.

"There were various profanities directed in her direction, along the line of '[expletive] murderer, [expletive] baby killer,'" Stirewalt said. "It culminated with some of the individuals throwing rocks at her, and as testament to her disciplined professionalism, she got in her car and left the area."

Murderer. Baby Killer.

This isn't just about the above low-life, ungrateful repugnant creatures who particpated in this display of idiocy. It's for all of you that think soldiers are baby killers. It's for all of you that call them murderers. It's for everyone who thinks that oil is the only reason we are in Iraq. It's for the cowards who hide behind placards and the loudmouths who degrade our armed forces while they enjoy the freedoms this country provides them. It's for everyone who thinks the United States Armed Forces are a group of bloodthirsty men and women hell bent on nothing but destruction and death and have no value for human life. It's for everyone who thinks we want to flatten Iraq without a care for the citizens of that country.

All images from this site; click for larger view

Here "an Iraqi child gestures to an American as other children look on, at a water distribution point in Umm Qasr, Iraq, Wednesday."

From left: Lt. Mark Day, Petty Officer Thomas Wagers, Cmdr. Robert Hinks, Lt. Cmdr. John Uecker, and Capt. John Perciballi work on an unidentifed, 2-year-old Iraqi boy, at Camp Viper, in southern Iraq on Wednesday.

A yound boy is all smiles after receiving water from US and British Civil Affairs troops in Umm Qsar, Iraq, on Wednesday. The water came from Kuwait in tankers.

The very same people who complain and cry that our soldiers are baby killers are never seen decrying Saddam Hussein as the same. There is no moral relativism at play here - Saddam and his army intentionally aim to kill and murder their own people, while we are there to rescue them from that madman. And yet, we are the killers. And our soldiers are degraded and insulted on their own soil.

Where do they learn the phrase "baby killer" from? Who teaches them these things? And who will they all turn to if war should ever come to our homes, on our land? Who will they turn to for protection and defense? The heroes of the left will not save them. They will be cowering under their beds like everyone else, waiting for one of our own baby killers and murderers to come save them.


Listed below are links to weblogs that reference sticks and stones:

» What sorta s**t is this? from The Inscrutable American
These kids deserve a kick in the 'nads and that's just the beginning. [Link via Michele]... [Read More]

» Ugh. from Inoperable Terran
A National Guardswoman in Vermont (!) was assaulted by idiot hippies (I keep hearing that these guys want peace, and yet they keep doing violent things). Michele gives 'em the business.... [Read More]


I shouldn't have read that. My blood is boiling.

(two minutes later)

I'm so angry I can hardly think.

Baby Killer? Reminds me of the scene in Forest Gump, where he ruins their "black panther party"...
You gotta love peaceniks. They attack the people that are protecting their freedom of speech, and freedom to protest, protecting them from violence and attacks from opposing groups.
Seriously...Someone should kill them...

Where do they learn it from Michele? From our wonderful public education system. A system that is maintained by a teachers union whose last concern is educating children. A system where teaching candidates are themselves indoctrinated into neo-socialist dogma and in turn indoctrinate our children.

Sound like some neocon fantasy? Yes, but sadly it really is happening that way. Both of my parents were educators. My mother taught english for 35 years in an inner city school and when she retired she said that she couldn't have done the last 8 years except for the children that she refused to abandon to a system that didn't give a damn about them. My father was a math teacher and guidance counselor for 20 years when he finally gave it up accepted a position as a personnel director for one of the larger public schools, it was enough to make him go from staunch Democrat to Republican in just a few years.

So it comes as no surprise to me that those little punks would cuss out a member of the armed forces, throw rocks at her car or call her baby-killer - that's what they've been taught.

What really scares me is that these children don't have any sense of right or wrong. They've no idea how to have a discussion, or how to disagree without resorting to violence. Sounds like a gigantic step back in evolution to me.

Hey, you guys are so right. It's impossible that any of them might have learned their violent behavior from a right winger, huh?

"Seriously...Someone should kill them..." - Rach


Ya know, I'm for peace, as any red-blooded American should be. But I also understand the need for war. I'm not an idiot and I don't block traffic to get my point across, nor do I throw rocks. However, I also don't sit in my living room, deciding for myself who should be allowed to live or to die. Some of you really need to step back and take a look at your recent attitude (as portrayed in the comments I've read here in recent months) about your fellow citizens, and decide if this is really the way you want others to see you.

Because quite honestly, some of you scare me.

And yes, I would say this to a person on the left if I came across them saying anything similar to the above.

Michele, I imagine at least some of that skewed attitude comes from their parents. Parents who treated Vietnam war veterans in exactly same manner. My brother and husband were both reviled, spit upon and jeered...simply because they served in the US Army in Vietnam. I can't tell you how stunned and hurt they were, along with all the other veterans who were subjected to this self-serving, thoughtless treatment. I still get upset thinking about the look on my brother's face when he got off the plane from Vietnam (after living through hell for a year) only to have several nearby protesters throw things at him, call him 'baby killer', and spit in his face.
I wanted to do something violent then, in return, and I feel the same way now. I won't, because I have self control and I respect them as human beings. (they are, aren't they?)
I will never understand that kind of behavior. Never.

What a bunch of bull-sh--

I'm a state Army guard member. I have a concealed weapon permit though, so some punk kid wants to step-up? I friggen dare them.

AND yes, those kids are definitely brain-washed.

Look guys face facts here. Soldiers kill babies, women, children, men, old people, the sick, the well, everyone, anyone (even each other when they aren't paying attention).

The Pentagon makes out that as long as they aren't deliberately choosing civilians as targets then civilian deaths are just a 'shit happens' event to them.

If YOU think this is an acceptable situation, but a soldier being hassled is the worst or worst atrocities then that what you think! But plenty of people will never agree with you. Fume away, we really care less about your hurt feeling in comparison to these poor people in Iraq who are having their lives destroyed.

If you are a soldier then you are part of a group that has a task which ends up killing every type of person and which devastates whatever area you work in.

Lee wrote:
"Ya know, I'm for peace, as any red-blooded American should be. But I also understand the need for war."

This is another classic line. It basically sums up as 'war is really really bad and should NEVER EVER EVER HAPPEN, except when we feel we need to.' Really makes your anti-war position meaning less.

I predict that some drip is going to accuse me of being a Saddam sympathizer or something because of what I have said. Just remember that Pakistan is a state run by a dictator (military coup a year or so ago) who has the worst weapon of mass destruction (nuclear bomb), and who treats his own population terrible (ie people in the Kashmir region). Will America go to war there next, not bloody likely, Pakistan is an ally.

Being a dictator with weapons of mass destruction who treats his only population badly is only a bad thing to the US government when the dictator stops being co-operative.

Egg-sucking butt weasels! Grrrr.....

Yeah. Let's fall back on the insults hurled at our Vietnam era soldiers.

Nothing original comes forth anymore.

I'd like to get my CLUE-STICK™ out and help them along the path of higher education.

I'm ashamed to be living in Vermont (at least I wasn't born here.) Too many Vermonters are simply communist and don't wish the United States well.

Sorry..Sorry. My apologies to Lee and anyone else I offended with my comment. Aside from the seriously part the "someone should kill" them part was from a scene in the movie Serial Mom (since I was on a movie quoting rampage.) Just forgot to post it. Sorry. Sheesh. And anyway, it was a joke. I don't believe in killing someone for their beliefs. My god. You're far too sensitive or perhaps insensitive to think that to be a true statement...

shaking head

As I posted at my own site earlier today, the protesting, it's moot at this point, and all the anti-war & pro-war, everyone wants the same thing in the end ... PEACE!

Rach, I appreciate you coming back to clear that up, and perhaps I am too sensitive these days. Considering everything I've been reading here, there and yonder, it's no wonder.

But just for the record, I am neither a liberal nor a conservative. I guess you could say I sit in the middle of the road on most things political, and neither side would claim me, so my message here is not one of being anti or pro war. I figure every one is entitled to decide for themselves which way to go with these issues.

I'm just tired of seeing both sides make cruel and callous remarks about each other. What the hell does attacking each other solve? It doesn't help the Iraqis, it doesn't show support for our soldiers. All it does do is show that we've not evolved nearly as far as we've been telling ourselves. That saddens me.

Have a good evening, everyone.

Hey, you guys are so right. It's impossible that any of them might have learned their violent behavior from a right winger, huh?

Actually Lee, given the behaviour of your average "peace activist" and the fact that they'd supposedly attended a peace rally that afternoon I'd have to say the odds were against it. Plus your average right winger tends to be pro-military I mean, call me crazy but I can't imagine a Freeper shouting "baby killer" and throwing rocks at a member of the guard in uniform. But that wasn't your point was it Lee?

Don't worry about it Rach, see, none of us are as good as Lee - isn't that right Lee? I mean, you come in and posts a load of condescending and idiotic crap, oozing with moral superiority and tells us what all real "red blooded" Americans want and you expect us to what? Have an epifany and renounce our evil ways? Give me a fuckin' break.

Reality check Lee - the left, not all of them but most of them - have gone off the deep end. They're hostile to alot of what America stands for - freedom, prosperity and opportunity. They think we deserved what we got on Spetember 11th, they think we killed 5,000 civilians in Afghanistan - btw, did you know THAT was all about oil too? They think we're going to carpet bomb Bagdhad. They hate the military, they hate America, and they hate anyone who doesn't think like they do.

See, I'm reformed. I was once a jelly-brained-know-everything-get-my-news-from-NPR lefty and you know what happened? I went overseas. I got a chance to see some nasty shit go down in a few real cess pool parts of the world and I realized how good we have it here. And I'm not going to let any bunch of punks screw things up for the rest of us because our leftist dominated public education system is programming these little trustifarian fucks to be the foot soldiers for the new socialist order. They or any other bunch of indy media NION counterpunch commoncause ANSWER foot soldiers get in my way and I'll run them down. It's no longer fun and games time Lee, this shit is real. People are going to die and I'd rather it be THEM than US. All real red blooded Americans do to, just ask one.

Because quite honestly, some of you scare me.

Be afraid Lee, be very afraid.


You reminded me of a great movie line...

"Some people just need killin,"

I put Saddam and his henchmen in that category. I put these kids in the "really need to get their asses spanked" category.

As for you - yeah sh*t happens in a war. But in this one we are going out of our way not to make it happen. To the extent that we are taking casualties to avoid hitting innocent civilians who are being forced at gunpoint to be human shields.

If we didn't care what happened to the people of Iraq we'd already be sitting in a flattened Baghdad, without using any of our WMD. And the death toll would be in the millions.

Although I find your implications extremely offensive, you do have the right to your opinion in our country, after all, that's one of things our military personnel are fighting for...

The tequila is gone.

As are the other supplies for the evening.

However, certain things remain clear.

Soldiers have fought for our freedom throughout history. Much as I may believe that Adolf Hitler was a PR genius for co-opting so many willing citizens to his genocidal crusade, and much as I still believe that Hussein's regime isn't exactly a sweetness-and-light campaign in aid of the people...

Our army, and the armies throughout the world, are still employed (as a primary function) TO KILL EVERYONE AND ANYONE who stands in the way of the eventual objective.

I mean, c'mon, let's not kid ourselves. These folks we're sending into battle...some of them may have a resolute mentality that I can't even imagine...but, hell, AREN'T WE STILL SENDING THEM IN TO MURDER PEOPLE?????

In an era in which we're blanket bombing foreign cities in the vain hope that we have the sophisticated technology to be accurate, can we at least be BALANCED enough to be reasonable so far as to admit that we're at war, and that every death represents a failure of democracy, no matter which side it comes from?

Y'know what? I'm tired of this propogandist doubletalk. Everything that transpires in the next few weeks or months (or however long it takes) is representative of a failure of the international resolutions passed in order to prevent war (either in order to retain power in the most barbaric fashion or in order to retain public support despite any competant ability as president) .

i'm really hoping that I'm wrong about the justification for this war, because, hell, otherwise a whole loada US and UK citizens (many of whom I talked to at my job just before they shipped out for the Middle East) are gonna die for nothing.

Hell, I'm glad I'm not out there. Because, jeez, I'm still not sure of the morality behind this one...

Here's to peace. And to heroes. From wherever they come...

This kind of behavior disgusts me.

I am personally opposed to this war. I have serious issues with our president and many of those that surround him.

However, I do not agree with the idea that anyone in the armed forces should have to deal with behavior of this kind. The things that soldiers do and have done for this country demand our respect. And to call them baby killers?

Many of these people joined the army to get themselves through school and as a result of the contract they signed, they have to obey their commander in chief. If anyone thinks that the armed forces are just a bloodthirsty group of people who love to go kill people anywhere, they are completely insane. Do they honestly think these guys are happy to leave their frineds and loved ones to go and fight a war in a desert?

Just so you know, this comes from a staunch liberal, so it isn't liberalism that breeds these ideas. It's the same thing that breeds them in the right wing: people who can't think for themselves and blindly follow a political party.

Jim, you face facts. Soldiers (at least not ours) do not TARGET babies, women, children, men, old people, the sick, the well, everyone, anyone. And to suggest that the situation is the same as if they had... well lets compare:

350 civilians reported dead in Iraq after 5 days of war. Compare this to 250,000 in one night (the firebombing of Dresdin).

THAT is what happens when civilans are targetted. Jim, meet facts. I'm sure the two of you have a lot to talk about.

The allies are taking such extreme care to not incur civilan deaths that some are rightly worried that this tactic may INCREASE them, by dragging the conflict out. Yet somehow this simply doesn't penetrate to your brain. Why should anyone cultivate your respect, since you'll withhold it in any case?

Oh, and in case you didn't know, Kashmir is occupied by INDIA, not Pakistan (with a very small territorial exception). You know, knowledge might beam in easier if you lowered the idiocy shields first. I mean, that's only the whole frigging POINT of the hostility between the 2 nations.

Yes, I'm a bit worried about the ghosts of realpolitik that apply to Pakistan. But your use of the example is dishonest: If we moved to invade, you'd scream twice as loud. Ditto NKorea. So any accusations you may have of inconsistancy are dismissed with prejudice.

Y'know what?

I was about to go to bed...

But, unfortunately, some rhetoric-raised retard lying around in your comments woke me up again...

Robert Modean. Listen up. By your own government's admission, this is a war against a tyranical regime capable of agressive action.

This is not about programming. This is not about some new communist invasion.

This is not the '50s. I imagine McCarthy ain't gonna pop up in the senate anytime soon.

So lay off the 'them and us' shit already, right? If there's anything to be said for this war, if there's anything that's gonna make me sit up in public and say that I was mistaken all along, it's when the conquering forces liberate the Iraqi nation to an area that can make it's own decisions and follow its own path via the will of its citizens...

Otherwise, don't give me that 'black and white' bullshit. If the US (and their British lapdogs) are genuinely in Iraq to gather up the tired, poor, and huddled masses, then I'll quite happily (and publically) admit my lack of insight. Until then, try to keep your closed minded propoganda to yourself.

I, for one, fell in love with America, despite being a foreigner, at a young age. I have a tattoo of the flag on my person, and display it every day at work.
Why? Because it represents prosperity? Any idiot over 12 recognises that that's not the basis for a decect society

No. Because in all my visits (since age 4) to the county, I have been welcomed (like no other country in 24 I've visited) in a way that proves that the vast majority of Americans are just enough to judge a man on his character, and not his racial profile.

Your nation has enriched my dreams with the hope of a country that both understands and embraces my variant personality, whilst accepting it into the culture. In my dreams, I have found a home in America. Do not disappoint me by turning this home into a profiling, cliquey fortress of fear. For terror and isolation unchecked destroys the soul of your nation, since your nation was built on acceptance.


I hope this remains true in the future. There are many who still yearn for escape...

It's gotta be the tequila talking' Cow, 'cause there's a big ass difference between what soldiers do and what thugs do. Soldiers have a job; they kill people - lots of people when they have too - they blow things up, they burn things down and they a harsh on the environment. But they do it for a reason and they aren't indiscriminantly. MURDER is a crime, its what thugs do, its indiscriminantly, its killing kids and women and old men on purpose. We aren't doing that. Intent, objective and execution are what differentiate the soldier from the thug.

BTW, at least get this one fucking fact down - WE DON'T CARPET BOMB CITIES ANYMORE, Christ on a crutch people, we haven't since Dresden and Tokyo. It was over 50 years ago, let it be. We spend billions developing precision munitions that can hit a gnat's ass from 50,000 feet just to make sure we only kill the bad guys, not the innocent bystanders. Cruise missiles run about $600K each, JDAM costs between $18,000 and $21,000 each, believe me - dumb bombs cost a helluva lot less.

Oh, and war represents a failure of democracy? Put down the pipe son, crack 'll rot your brain. Democracy is a form of government, war is diplomacy by other means. Speaking of democracy, more than 70% in the US support the war, democratic enough for ya'? Oops, I forgot the masses brainwashed by corporate media cannot be trusted to think for themselves...what crap.

Same line of shit from a different turd, why do I bother?

Here's to peace. And to heroes. From wherever they come...

On that we can agree.

You are very confused and naive.

1. "Soldiers kill...everyone, anyone..." in a declared, open armed conflict = a war.

2. "The Pentagon makes out that as long as they aren't deliberately choosing civilians as targets then civilian deaths are just a 'shit happens' event to them."

By not deliberately choosing civilians as targets the soldiers endager/give their own life. Thus, not only is this not a "shit happens" event to the soldiers, it is unprecedented in the annals of warfare. Moreover, killing an Iraqi civilian on the battlefield is not equivalent to killing an Iraqi civilian at the WTC.

3. "If YOU think this is an acceptable situation, but a soldier being hassled is the worst or worst atrocities then that what you think!

Civilians being killed in a war is neither an acceptable nor an unacceptable situation. It is a reality, a component of the "facts of war", if you will. A soldier in a store in Vermont has nothing to do with the reality of war. A soldier being hassled in a store in Vermont, while our soldiers are engaged in a war is an atrocity. I will not list all the reasons why--the list would be too long. But I have to briefly list one reason, in particular: because this woman is willing to give her life for you, for me, and for the kids hassling her.

4. "But plenty of people will never agree with you. Fume away, we really care less about your hurt feeling in comparison to these poor people in Iraq who are having their lives destroyed. "

Again, it is not an issue of agreement, it is an issue of fact. The poor people of Iraq are having their lives destroyed by the Sadam régime. Our soldiers are fighting a war to remove that régime. Since the Vermont soldier is part of this effort, you either care about both, or not. It is illogical to care for the well-being of one without the other.

5. "Being a dictator with weapons of mass destruction who treats his only population badly is only a bad thing to the US government when the dictator stops being co-operative."

When said dictator threatens the survival of the US it is not "only a bad thing" to the US government. It is the supreme duty of the US government to do everything in its power to protect its citizens. And the fact that the US is one of the few countries willing to fight for the survival of its people while at the same time helping its opponent is what differentiates it from the rest.

Sorry for the looong post, but people like Jim scare me. I've already lived under an Iraqi-style régime and have escaped to the US. If Jim and his ilk triumph, there will be no place left to run!


Shouting that armies KILL people, especially enemy soldiers isn't going to make us clap our hands about our cheeks and moan "Oh... I never considered that!"

Which, by the way is not murder. Murder is a term with a specific legal meaning... specifically it means UNLAWFUL killing. Don't use that word unless you care to annouce that you are willing to throw flames around for the shock value alone. Same thing with blanket bombing. We are not blanket bombing, thank you very much.

can we at least be BALANCED enough to be reasonable so far as to admit that we're at war

Exaclty which alternate universe do you hail from, where no one is willing to admit we are at war? Do they have gravity on your planet?

...and that every death represents a failure of democracy

Since our elected representitives gave Bush permission to wage war without U.N. approval, I'd have to say this war can in no way at all be characterized as a failure of democracy. Unless any action you disagree with is undemocratic?

I'm tired of this propagantist doubletalk as well. Like "Bush is a Nazi", "This war is illegal", and "no war for oil".

And you have a lot of nerve complaining that "Everything that transpires... is representative of a failure of the international resolutions passed in order to prevent war", when every weapon that was discovered was claimed to show that the inspections were working.

And you have to do some VERY narrow reading of 1441 to claim its purpose was to prevent war. You are guilty of doublespeak... over and over again.

And to cite "to retain public support" as a reason behind this war... is unspeakably vile. Especically since I've never seen you meantion Clinton's little war that began and ended with the impeachment process.

You should be ashamed of spouting such wretched unsupported demonizing indymedia filth. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth, you disgusting little goblin?

Hello all. I think some of the problem with modern lefties and such is that death is the worst thing they can think of. Lots follows from that. If man is an eternal being death is not the same fearful end as it is to those who believe they die like dogs. So any cowardice is preferrable to a noble or virtuous death, or in fact, any death.

Wow, that is more than i cared to read, for some reason i agree my blood is boiling as well!!!

ya know what Cow,

I misjudged you - but you're still wrong.

My family came here fleeing oppression and found freedom and opportunity and yes, prosperity here in America. The US and THEM remarks were in reference to something I posted yesterday, about this being between the America and her like minded allies and THEM - everyone who is actively against the "US" group.

Hey, I'm happy as hell you love America man, but you want me to lay off? Fuck you. Isolation? We're more invovled in the world than ever before man, and as for acceptance, shit, we're a nation of immigrants, and I'm a son of immigrants, and you're right - our nation was built on acceptance and it should always stay that way, why do you think we tear ourselves up over things like racial profiling?

But we have a right to defend ourselves, and we have a right to live in both freedom AND security, and those aren't things the U.N. can guarantee, and they aren't things the French give a rats ass about. It's up to US to take care of THEM and then maybe, just maybe, shit can get back to normal.

When it comes down to it, history will remember this as a just war, a war of liberation and the next logical step in the war on terror.

When it comes down to it, history will remember this as a just war, a war of liberation and the next logical step in the war on terror.

Actually Robert it won't. A disaster averted doesn't get the same approval rating as a disaster repaired. Had Hitler been stopped early, while the appeasement folks were still in power, then Churchill would have paid a heavy price and gone down in history as a aggressor, not a hero. But we might have been spared the Holocaust.

If he is successful, Bush's best hope is to be remembered like Reagan... loved or hated according to party lines.

I have personal intrest in this conflict. My blood is over there. I'm just itching for the first peacenik to show up at my door with some bullshit petition. Everytime I see a peace protest my blood boils. How fucking dare you insult a person in uniform. Those who do are the lowest form of life on this planet. Please spare me your sudo-intelectual debate and responce. In my mind you are nothing. you are shit. I have no respect for you and do not consider you a human being. Your arguements sound like a recording. You have no facts. You accuse the US of violating international law yet cannot produce one single piece of proof other than what you have "heard".
You carry signs of a marxist thought yet have no idea what they mean. Communism and Socialism fail for a reason...they are for the weak, and the for the corrupt.

Wake up. Eutopia does not and will never exsist

Just don't confuse the petitioning peaceniks with the ones who block traffic and stone Americans they disapprove of, K?

Petitioning is asking for your approval. Withhold it and let them know exactly why, but don't treat it as an unwelcome attempt to shove thier views in your face (unless of course they do that).

Communism and Socialism fail for a reason...they are for the weak, and the for the corrupt.

Actually, they fail for more concrete reasons:

Communism fails because it doesn't address the tradegy of the commons... doesn't give people a reason to contribute or strive. Nationalism and "education" can slow the degeneration by giving moral reasons, but when that fails the leader who has rejected capitalism has only escalating levels of violence to fall back on.

At the individual level, capitalism is the carrot, not the stick. Small wonder it leaves fewer bruises.

Socialism fails because it is insufficently agile to compete with thousands of independant minds all trying to provide things their fellow man values enough to pay for.

But yes, in a way these systems ARE for the weak. They are for those who prefer to set up society based on how they BELIEVE things should work, rather than how they actually do. And when it fails? The weak mind looks for someone to blame, That's U.S.

Only 3 more weeks in Vermont....I'm free!

Only 3 more weeks in Vermont....I'm free!

You must be reading the reports wrong... we are bombing Iraq to liberate its people... if you live in Vermont, you just have to wait your turn.

"How fucking dare you insult a person in uniform."

i hope that you can get this worked up to take action when veteran's benefits get cut to the bone. because it's already happening.

I agree. They will turn to the military for help if someone were to bring war to their shores, or to their land. But I'm sure they'll never have to worry, because with Iraq as a precedent the US will be able to attack any country they feel offers some sort of threat. "Hey look, I don't like them Canadians, they play hockey, and there's beavers up there. Let's get 'em! Yee Haw, Yee Haw!"

The Iraq precedent... Is it just me or is even that a cooler name for the war the "Operation Iraqi Freedom"?

BTW Habjan, we already had the ability to attack any country we feel threatens us, it's just that before we tried to talk nicely to them, be all friendly like and buy them off with aide packages. The difference is that 3,000 dead New Yorkers later we've decided to just hit them with a big fucking rock 'till they stop bothering us.

Oh, and why would we invade canuckistan because of hockey and beavers? Hockey is the second greatest sport ever created, right after football - American football that is, not soccer, which is actually the fourth greatest sport after basketball but before baseball and don't even get me started on cricket. And beaver, well who doesn't like beaver? I loves me some beaver, yes I do, them's good eatin' (think about it folks).

I've worked in higher education for a long time. There's no doubt in my mind that a good number of leftist professors think their mission is to induce a particular worldview in their students.

I don't do it. In fact, I explicitly tell my students to think for themselves. I tell them not to uncritically accept what their profs--including me!--think.

And in a nutshell, that's the difference between the contemporary Left and the contemporary Right, regarding the purpose of education.

...Reading this thread...


How do you have an informed debate with people whose honest and passionate commitments are based on facts that are objectively incorrect?

"Soldiers kill babies, women, children, men, old people, the sick, the well, everyone, anyone," from Lee.

"Our army, and the armies throughout the world, are still employed (as a primary function) TO KILL EVERYONE AND ANYONE who stands in the way of the eventual objective," Crimson Cow.

I think these posts are meant sincerely, not as trolls. Do educated readers have the obligation to try and correct every deformed idea that rears its head? I can only suggest, "why don't you do a little reading before posting?" In these cases, since the subject is the conduct of the US Army, how about some military history? It can't be that hard to distinguish Indymedia frothing from John Keegan or Parameters magazine (can it?)

Anyway, on-topic...I used to work in Plainfield, Vermont, where this incident took place, and often stopped at that general store for a bottle of pop. Plainfield was (still is) renowned in Central Vermont for its place at the epicenter of extreme-left politics and leftover-hippie lifestyles. The conduct of these teens is probably pretty reflective of the thinking of a good number of their elders.

I agree with the guy who likes hockey and beaver. Well I agree about the hockey and beaver part anyway. The 3000 dead New Yorkers thing bugs me because it looks like he's associating Iraq with 9/11, and that's just silly. But still, Saddam is a badass, beaver is good, terrorism is bad, diplomacy didn't work, whether it was explored to its fullest extent or not. So let's just hope the baby killing soldiers and the non-baby killing soldiers can end this thing quickly without any further loss of life, and maybe we can begin to argue about post war clean up and whether the US, the UN, or the Iraqis should run Iraq.

These teenagers are under each discussion line, of course. And it's not the armed forces I think are the bloodthirsty ones and just want to destroy as much as possible in Iraq - it's just your government who acts that way. And - since I don't trust press much, are you sure, the pics are more real than the embassadors daughter last time?
Don't get me wrong, I do think the troops liberate chidlren. But I would not bet on the authenticy of these pics.

>Don't get me wrong, I do think the troops >liberate chidlren. But I would not bet on >the authenticy of these pics.

Oh, yeah, they musta been doctored by the CIA...And all the videos they've been showing on the news channels in the US...all the imbedded reporters are in on it too, they're CIA moles.

Silly America-hating cow.

America must only solicit a photo op to forfeit 'authenticity'. Whereas Iraq is seldom guilty of the same, even when it uses the threat of death to obtain its photos..

Systematically trusting Iraq while distrusting the U.S. is simply not supported by history or reason.

These are the people we are dealing with... people who do not use common grounds of logic, history or reason except to the extent that they can be bent to serve an anti-american agenda.

Small wonder some are beginning to think of these folks as 'the other'. They have renounced every value which makes us similar to them.

Doesn't Vermont have laws to prosecute assault?

I know we have them here in Alabama, and if someone threw rocks at a soldier their butts would be in jail for a long time. YEEHAW.

I.e., a couple of teenagers were recently prosecuted for cross-burning - they got 10 years each.

We prefer our protesters to remain polite.

Let's all remember to put our helmets on...falling from "moral" horses this high could lead to serious injury!

BTW, hockey is THE best sport, hands down, and I've yet to meet a beaver I didn't like...

Spoiled brats likely raised by parents who let them throw temper tantrums in public, and the like. Probably the only thing they DO have respect for is their own image in the mirror.

Some of you need to read back over the comments before attributing another person's words to me. Cause Lee didn't say a damn thing about soldiers or who they may or may not kill.

And others need to stop reading something into what I've said, and simply take my words at face value, because I only say what I mean.

And it is for reasons like these that I rarely comment here.

I rest my case

Lee (3/28 8:57pm):

>Some of you need to read back over the comments before attributing another person's words to me.

That was me (3/28 2:38pm). I'm wrong. Lee did NOT, as I claimed, post that "soldiers kill babies" (Jim, 3/28 12:13am). Ironically, Lee's earlier post (3/27 11:09pm) was on the need to keep a sense of perspective, and not demonize those with opposing political views. When I occasionally read the vitriol in many Little Green Football's comments, I often think the same thing.

>And it is for reasons like these that I rarely comment here.

I apologize for the ill effects of my carelessness. I hope you keep posting when you have wise thoughts to contribute.

Alastair Mackay

"Silly America Hating Cow" "you are nothing. you are shit.", "Some people just need killin," and even "I have a concealed weapon permit though, so some punk kid wants to step-up? I friggen dare them".
Are these really comments from people protesting that some kids used insults at someone? Well done. As the world re-shapes and people on all sides die, you get so worked up about name-calling that you retaliate by doing EXACTLY THE SAME? You're all weasel-brained, moronic, lardy-arsed, shit-peddlars.

And, in reference to JB, who thinks that the only way those pictures might not represent the truth is if the CIA doctored them: in the UK a respected news agency filmed prisoners in concentration camps in the Balkans. Their faces peering at the camera through the barbed fences drew great sympathy. But it turned out the cameras were INSIDE a disused camp and the people on camera were free. I'm an editor, I can tell you the media use images out of context all the time - we are under tight schedules and dont always have perfect resources. Don't believe everything you see or read. And then there is publisher pressure. Why do you think all 147 of Murdoch's papers supported the war right from the start, just like him? (And if you're watching Fox News, you're getting information from a Murdoch-owned source). Don't treat any media as definitive.

I just want to give Rose a standing ovation for her comment,,clapclapclapclap...BRAVO!
I just want to thank the people of Chicago for their troop support assembly last week. Pray for our soldiers and all those people suffering over there esp. the kids. Once again Michele thanks for this web-site my check is in the mail :)

Yeah, but apart from Powell none of your strong leaders are willing to fight for America - check out: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/chickenhawk_flash.htm

And Rose's comment "A soldier being hassled in a store in Vermont ... is an atrocity" - Rose, do you know what attrocity means?
And how exactly was Hussein "threatening the survival of the US?" In 12 years, there was one apparent attempt to assassinate an ex-president (hardly a threat to the country's survival), which was followed (illegally under international law) by a bombing campaign. Otherwise, nothing. Even so, UN weapons inspections continued, and so far no credible threat to the US has appeared. Yet Bush saw no reason to conclude such work. Let's see what deadly weapons are uncovered during the war. Wouldn't it be strange if no long-range weapons were fired by Iraq? They seem willing to sttack Kuwait right now, but not the US. I wonder why. Rose, it is you who is naive.

Ummmmmmm Michele. The first picture of the kids giving the "thumbs up" sign to the soldiers! Well, the thumbs up sign is "fuck you" in Arab nations. LOL, sorry, but they are making fun of the soldier, not greeting him.

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that I'm ashamed to be of the same generation as those kids in the story who have no appreciation for what they have in American and who got them those gifts. I have lived all over the world for short periods of time and I know America is the only place I want to call home, and I am not only proud of what we are doing in Iraq, I really wish we WOULD go clean up more of the world when we are done there. And I am just about military age, and if I could I would join immediately and fight alongside them too. Unfortunately I won't be able to for medical reasons.

Zander, would you like to help clean up the world? Well, the nation globally considered the most dangerous is the USA. Could you start there? Meanwhile, when you can list all the DEMOCRATIC regimes toppled by the US in the last 25 years, THEN you might be ready to fight. But until then - go back to school. And if you'd like the answer to that question, just ask...