« supporting the troops | Main | stop me if you heard this one before: »

this was the post about rachel corrie

This was a post about Rachel Corrie.

I may have come across a lot harsher than I meant to. Sometimes it's not what you say, but the way that you say it.

My point still stands. I can't feel sympathy for Americans who go on to foreign soil and try to protect the homes of terrorists who have killed so many, some of them Americans themselves.

You can take this any way you want to, I guess it all depends on which side of the Middle East conflict you side with.

I feel about her the same way I feel about human shields in Iraq. I do not consider them courageous.

I know from my email that I offended some people with my choice of words. My honesty and bluntness has gotten me into trouble before, and I'm sure this won't be the last time.

I will apologize for the way I stated some things. I will never, ever apologize for my feelings.

UPDATE

I'm really tired of apologizing. I'm tired of walking on eggshells around people who don't feel the same way as me. My days of appeasement for the sake of friendships or civility are gone.

Comments

Beat you to it, Michele.

here

I called it "Stoopid people tricks"

Correction. The "late" Rachel Corrie.

I edited the post to say "was" instead of "is."

rachel is kinda up there with the human shields
she made a decision to protect what she sees as oppressed people with her own body
she certainly knew what she was getting into
but the fact there rachel did not go out and cry for all the women, children and civilians killed by suicide bombers
the fact that rachel was no where to be found recently when a bus filled with israeli high school students was was blown up
is fairly telling

rachel clearly
only cared about the opression of one kind of people
the not israel
and not american kind

so no
i am not crying for rachel
but i am crying for israel
who will now
like always
take a whole ton of shit
they don't deserve

That's right!!! Anyone who would burn an American flag and protest the wrong-doings of certain americans deserves to be bull-dozed to death!!! Hopefully the U.S. government will aim some bulldozers at the next group of war protesters, thos anti-american motherf**kers. Next up: The Dixie Chicks...

Malcolm X: "Chickens coming home to roost never make me sad; they only make me glad."

If only it were that simple, Tom. Then I could take your words seriously.

I don't see her protesting the bombing of schools and churches in Israel. I don't see her cohorts condemning suicide bombers who walk into schools and ignite bombs loaded with nails.

It's more than just burning a flag. And I never said she deserved to die, I just said I have no sympathy for her.

There is a difference, you know.

In your picture Rachel is burning a crude drawing of an American flag.

If you go over to LGF you can see the
Palestinians carrying a mock casket for Rachel, draped in a crude hand painted American flag.

I'm guessing that real American flags are hard to come by in the occupied territories. Perhaps I should invest in street venders selling American flags. We could sell slow burning, fast burning and crackle log flags :)

Yes, I there is a difference. And you are also right that there are atrocities committed by BOTH sides (the Israeli's being as reprehensible as the Palestinians). But it's rather jarring to hear someone claim they have no sympathy for somebody who was, essentially, killed for protesting. That's a rather un-American sentiment (although it did happen on foreign soil where the first amendment has even less relevance than it does stateside).

Frankly, I don't want to see anyone killed. And I'm sure you feel the same way. And I think that people who truly believe in peace, people who may be "liberal" or "conservative" condemn any violent actions. I often hear "conservatives" say "where were your tears when americans were killed?" or "where were your tears when hamas was bombing schoolbusses?" A question like that is based on the erroneous assumption that all "leftist peaceniks" care about is trashing america. I was mortified on 9/11 while I watch the towers fall and my first thought was "those poor people." My fiancée and my sister were both in Manhattan and I was only a few miles outside the city (if I went to the beach on the sound shore I could see the plume of smoke over the outline of the Throggs Neck and Whitestone bridges and what was left of the skyline). And I'm almost equally mortified about the "shock and awe" that's about to develop and the american troops who will needlessly die. Just like I'm mortified when I hear about a palestinian suicide-bomber in an Israeli marketplace. It's all a terrible illustration of how sick and twisted people can unleash evil on the world and disrupt humanity.

The actions by Israel are not morally equivalent to the actions by Palestinian suicide bombers.

Israel is engaged in a war against terrorism, civilian casualties will occur. The Palestinian terrorists (among other groups) are morally accountable for the civilian casualties, for it is they who initiate the violence; Israel responds to attacks, i.e. it defends itself.

Check out who is being targeted by each side, and check out who is commonly being killed by each side. Israel specifically targets the terrorists; the terrorists specifically target Israeli civilians.

The next time you see a news flash, something like: Israel kills 6 Palestinians in Gazza incursion - read the story and notice that 5 of those 6 are known Hamas terrorists (and the other 1 just happens (yeah right) to be with them).

Israel has assasinated mass quantities of terrorists over the last two years, and damn it's wonderful.

i agree with Tom. I was in the city, and couldn't find my mother for 6 hours (she works below canal street); i'm really tired of the serious lack of well thought out arguments against anti war sentiments; or anybody truly taking an apartheid state to task. the cycle of violence argument is just wrong...

also, i don't think any parent would accept such conditional sympathy from you or anyone who expressed such clear disdain for their murdered child in the same breath.

unless they exhibited the same cynicism that you do, and you offered them money...

I don't even feel sorry for her family, I'm a heartless bastard.

This is a young woman who, however deluded, traveled halfway across the world and put her life on the line for something she believed in.

Regardless of whether or not I agree with her political stance I applaud her for the strength of her convictions. Keep in mind that Ms. Corrie could have sat back on her ass raising money for terrorists, writing long screeds on a website to promote her views or converted to radical Islam and strapped a bomb to her chest.

She did none of the above. Foolish, of course she was. Misguided, undoubtedly. A danger to anyone but herself, I think not. Her only error was a fatal lapse of judgement by taking some US version of non-violent free speech into the middle of a friggin' war zone.

BTW, I wouldn't place too much credence on that first picture, at least not unless you believe she is nine feet tall and has had a mans hand grafted to end of her arm. Fisheye distortion is one thing... vanishing kids is quite another.

RIP Rachel and may God be with you.

Al:

Hitler had the strength of his convictions too. Conviction is not always noble.

What she was doing was fighting for the "rights" of the people who are targeting innocents. Not only am I glad the misguided beyotch is dead, but if I had the extra cash, I'd travel to Washington state next month and piss on her grave.

I have no love for either side.
Let them both be dust in history.

Ah, leave it to Sylvain to add some "wisdom" to the debate. Thanks for the deep, nuanced insight!

Rachel Corrie was a fool. She died a fools death. She supported "oppressed" people who have always been told that they can get at least some of what they want by dropping the so-called Intifada, but who have decided that rather than negotiate for a homeland of their own as the Israelis have always been willing to do they decided instead that they'd rather just kill Jews. They are quite willing to accept any number of fools and idiots like Miss Corrie to their side, and see them killed so they can use their deaths for their "cause." Firmness of conviction is worthless when it's in the service of evil.

What an intelligent thread. Andrea, as always, has responded to a post she deems foolish with even greater foolishness. Take a college course in logic/reasoning before spewing your worthless diatribes. Same for beaker. Christ. This site has needlessly flopped so far to the right that its discussion threads read like the Christian Science Monitor. Whatever happened to a considered discussion of issues? Oh sorry, I'll just call people names when I disagree with them so I'll fit right in.
Duh.

Michele,

Never walk on egg shells, never temper you opinions as long as you're not rude and hatefull those that take offense can either rebutt (respectfully) or shut up.

Dave:

No disrespect intended, but I just love how you took a personal swipe at Andrea and myself, and then whined about how people don't have "considered discussions" of the issues.

Sorry, but sometimes it really can be a black and white issue. Corrie was defending terrorists who deliberately target innocent Israelis (usually children). She got what she deserved.

Beaker,

That really is quite a stretch. Are you comparing a genocidal and well armed maniac with a misguided kid?

I rarely participate in these discussions and this only reminds of why... the insistence of some in seeing things only in the starkest shades of black and white makes it pretty point pointless. Your ethier preaching to the choir or tilting at windmills.

I can regret the loss of a misguided child without supporting terrorism or fascism.

I truly don't mean this to sound callous, but to quote Moe The Bartender (talking about the Iranian hostages), "Aaah, they shouldn't a been over dere in the first place..."

Sad that she died, but she willingly chose to place herself in mortal danger.

So now a 23 year old is a misguided child?Misguided and a fool perhaps,but she made her choice as an adult.

Okay, Michele, I haven't scrolled down far enough yet to read the post, but I can't imagine anything you could have said that would warrant an apology. So don't. This dumb chick is right up there with that moron some years back who lost his legs to a munitions train here. I would say the same thing to both:
TOO FUCKING BAD!
You play with fire, you get burned. My kids knew that before kindergarten.

She wasn't killed for protesting. She committed suicide. That's what I call standing in front of a moving bulldozer. Do you actually think the Israelis wanted to run over an American, no matter what a dimwit and pain in the ass she was? She made a stupid, childish error and assumed that the man in the big loud machine could see her, hear her, and stop on a dime, none of which were true.

No matter how hard you wish it, you can't repeal the laws of physics. Rachel, meet Isaac Newton...

Michele, don't apologize. This girl and her cohorts in crime are actively supporting terrorists whose sole and publicly expressed reason for existance is to drive Israel into the sea, to kill every Jew in Israel. She's part of the Vichy French support of Nazism. She may not be running the gas chamber, but she's loading the trains.

Like I said on my blog, the gene pool is cleaner.

Ding dong the *itch is dead
The stupid *itch
Ding dong the stupid *itch is dead.

People like her spit on returning American GIs during the Viet Nam war.

This was a debate??
ANyway, I had written what I thought was pretty good insight into my comment, then decided against posting it.
I hadn't realized that there was specific criteria for posting a comment here.
Suffice it to say I think they are both savages in their own way and leave the question of "moral equivalency" to those who like to post paragraph-heavy comments.

Okay, Rachel-Corrie-admirers, here's an in-depth examination of this whole issue. Ms Corrie didn't kneel picturesquely in front of the bulldozer (supposedly driven by a "well-armed maniac") like a picture of the Christ Child, she jumped up on the blade while the vehicle was going over rough terrain. Of course she fell off and got run over.

And Sylvain, you have some kind of problem with paragraphs? I must admit, I just don't get that.

Oh, and "dave," you can bite me.

Rachel Corrie can burn in hell for all I care. I have zero sympathy left for the Palestinians or their supporters. There is no room for reasoned debate when Palestinians continually target Israeli shoppers, teenagers in school buses, or weddings.

"Never explain - your friends don't need it and you enemies won't believe you any way."

I'm really tired of apologizing. I'm tired of walking on eggshells around people who don't feel the same way as me. My days of appeasement for the sake of friendships or civility are gone.

Amen to that!

Andrea, you beat me to it. I was debating between trying to explain the concept of dramic irony to dave, or to simply make fun of the arc of his posting by saying "bite me!" Sometimes it doesn't matter if the person you're talking to is capable of understanding that they're being mocked,

Sylvain, I love the even-handed attitude. I imagine a skin head who sits on his rotting couch in his wife beater and laughs whenever he hears of that Kikes or Rag Heads killed each other. "Doin our work for us" he drools,.

This is the industrial version of "suicide by cop." It's stupid to think that just because you're an American citizen, you can go anywhere in the world and interfere with a military operation in the name of "peace."

I saw a picture of the candlelight vigil that was held for her in Olympia, with photocopied pictures of her with the word "Peacemaker" written underneath. Then I remembered the pictures I saw of her burning the mock American flag with the Stars of David on it, her face contorted with hate, trying to stir up the Palestinian crowd. THIS is a "peacemaker"? Give me a break!

I am in support of Israel citizen, because nobody deserve to be murdered when shopping in a market, walking to school, or going to a party. By the same token, no Palestinian civilians deserve to be murdered by the military when they trying to go to work, obtaining water, or protecting their house. Israel is engaged in a war against terrorism, and civilian casualties will occur is just an excuse. Death is death, and death is not discriminatory. Being "collateral damage" is the same as being the victim of a suicide bombing. Are people suppose to be punished collectively? If so, than how come if a criminal hiding in a neighbor hood does not prompt our government to shoot the entire neighborhood? Before, you go about and trying to attack me personally, you should seiousely think about those two questions above. There sure seems to be alot of this so call "collateral damages" who were kill by "accident". Anyone who can look at Rachel's before and after pictures of being runover by the bulldozer, and still manage to mock her action are the same sadist that Ariel Sharon would have like to recruit to carry out his brutality against humanity. If the Israeli's house (the weak) was being demolished by the US backed Palestinian force (the strong), she would have done the same thing to protect Israelis. What some you can't get through that thick head of yours is that she is not selfish like you. She consider herself citizen of the world rather than zionist, republican, conservative, citizen of _country, or any other narrowly defined terms. If you read any of her letters, you will find that she does not support the Palastinian just to spite the opposition. She supported them because MOST of them are weak, and being ignored internationaly. Notice that I stress the word most, because it does not include terrorists because, they are the strong one, and their victims would be the weak and innocent ones. It was the defense of the weak against the strong, but somehow there are always idiots who seems to relish in the perversion of everything.

"There is no room for reasoned debate when Palestinians continually target Israeli shoppers, teenagers in school buses, or weddings" (?!?!?!) who has all the guns here? Since when is it moral to shoot rock throwers with live rounds?

I guess my problem is that Ariel Sharon kills innocent men, women, and a surprisngley large number of children, just like the palastinian terrorists. The only difference is, Sharon kills alot more of them, alot more often, and with greater effiiciency. That's probably because he gets billions in U.S. tax dollars to help finance him. When God created humanity in His loving image, He had someone like Rachel Corrie in mind.

Below is the correspondence I conducted with a lecturer at the Evergreen State College, Lawrence Mosqueda, in regard to the tragic death of Rachel Corrie.

After reading my letter he called me one of “supporters of Israel” and a “nazi”.

If an alternative point of view generates such hostile reaction from an instructor at the Evergreen State College, Olympia, Washington, what values are they teaching the students?

From: "Mosqueda, Lawrence" | This is Spam | Add to Address Book
To: "'roger wright '"
Subject: RE: Rachel Corrie
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 00:42:51 -0800

I did not know that Nazis such as yourself were supporters of Israel. Interesting.

The Israeli Army sure has a lot of "accidents". Most be a bunch of idiotic clods. Shame they can't train them better.
There's a lot of Israeli's here in my town. With all the money we send them, they should be down on their knees, kissing American butt, but instead they engage in their subversive activities, large and small, dragging us into their war.
Maybe it's time to start arranging that Israeli's in America start running into some fatal "accidents". This is a good idea, Israeli's understand and respect the concept of reprisal. With enough of those, Israeli's will leave my country, America, where I never wanted them in the first place.

A commentary comes from HonestReporting.com:

"American college student Rachel Corrie was tragically killed on Sunday when she fell down as an IDF bulldozer destroyed a house in Gaza. The bulldozer was part of an operation to eliminate tunnels used by Palestinian terrorists to illegally smuggle weapons from Egypt into Gaza.

"Corrie apparently stood atop a mound of dirt as the bulldozer approached the house, but then fell backward, tumbling down the mound and out of sight. The bulldozer continued and accidentally crushed her. The IDF Spokesman said that soldiers repeatedly warned demonstrators to keep a safe distance...

"(In general, we wonder on what basis the International Solidarity Movement justifies shielding a house used for weapons smuggling.) The Washington Post, March 16, notes two important points:

"1) soldiers driving an armored bulldozer have limited visibility because of the narrow window.
"2) One of the ISM founders admits the protesters might not have been as disciplined in their protest as they should have been.

"Most media reports failed to mention that the IDF bulldozer was looking for smuggling tunnels. Instead, reports described the house sympathetically as "the home of a Gazan doctor."

To Ken, please stop your anti-semitism. Not all jews support Sharon's policy, and it is unfair to bring collective punishment to all people. You can't counter wrong doings with more wrong doings. Rachel would not appreciate something like happen in the name of her death.

Rachel Corrie was a person who gave up everything--her very life-- to protect innnocent people. How many of you would do the same thing? How can you say these horrible things about such a person? Have you no heart? You are terribly blind if you cannot see the inhumanity taking place in Israel-Palistine. Rachel saw them and died because of them. Don't think of people as Israeli or Palestinian or American, etc, so much so that you forget they are in fact human.

When a Palestinian mother loves her suicide bomber son more than she hates Israelies maybe that when this violence will start to end. I feel bad for Rachel, she was too young to die. I feel just as bad for all the Israelies that have died at the hands of suicide bombers.

That was beautifully said, Vince & I appreciate your posting the above message. I thing the short essay that I'm posting below makes some excellent points:

Rachel Corrie´s Death Wish
Irwin N. Graulich

The venerated title "human shield" has become a 21st century euphemism for "protecting evil." This morally confusing term most often applies to individuals who defend evil dictators such as Saddam Hussein or Yasser Arafat.

Rachel Corrie´s wasted life ended as a result of throwing herself in front of an Israeli bulldozer to protect the "property" of a terrorist, something so senseless that even terrorist relatives never attempt it. Due to the unfortunate circumstances surrounding this incident, the media has portrayed Ms. Corrie as a compassionate, innocent, young American student fighting for a just cause. Beautiful photographs taken from her graduation, birthday parties and campus experiences adorn written eulogies honoring her life.

However, her actual demeanor was more accurately portrayed by USA Today, which featured a recent photo of the activist standing alongside Palestinian children, while burning a mock American flag and shouting, "Bush and Sharon are crazy!" Her own "crazed" expression bespeaks the truth.

College students become enamored with their future role in the world by undertaking a variety of causes. Unfortunately, a lack of maturity and wisdom often manifest themselves into rather poor decision-making. Rachel Corrie did not choose to fight against the Sudanese government that murdered more than one million blacks; she did not decide to protest the torturous regime of Saddam or other Arab/Muslim governments, which oppress women and jail people for wearing crosses. Instead, this morally confused college girl chose to devote her time to battling the lone democracy in the Middle East, which is fighting for its survival against 20 Arab/Muslim countries that still do not recognize its existence.

Rachel and her friends confronted Israel and America as adversaries because it is quite easy to criticize a democracy. Such activists are merely "useful idiots," manipulated in this case by the International Solidarity Movement, an anti-American, anti-Semitic organization that supports terrorism against the West.

Sadly, the concept of good and evil never made sense to the likes of Rachel Corrie. Radical activists often define right and wrong throughout the world in terms of "weak and strong" or "rich and poor." This typical leftist ideology alleges that poor (Third World) and weak groups/nations are somehow always oppressed, persecuted and certainly never wrong.

Rachel Corrie´s parents, who more than likely taught her these bizarre values, must have been members of the same pot smoking hippie commune as John Walker Lindh´s mom and dad. Of course, we feel sadness for any parent who loses a child. Nevertheless, fighting for the physical valuables of a suicide bomber who murdered many innocents, makes one an accessory to homicide, similar to Johnny (the American Taliban) Walker.

The Corrie´s were foolish for condoning their daughter´s involvement in anti-American causes and should probably be prosecuted for child abuse. Any parent who encourages their impressionable son/daughter to sit in front of Osama bin Laden´s house, should American troops decides to destroy it, must take full responsibility for the consequences. Therefore, the decent person who contemplates Rachel´s unfortunate death must have mixed emotions. There is sadness for the loss of a young life and contempt for her immoral path.

Reading Ms. Corrie´s well publicized February 7, 2003 email to her parents, shows her incredible naiveté about the situation in the West Bank and Gaza, and total ignorance of Middle East history. By calling President Bush "a tool," Corrie inverted reality, since she actually became the "ultimate tool" of the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure.

Rachel Corrie continues to be praised by the Arab press, who on those very same pages, sing praises to Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. When you are associated with such impressive (sic) company, you have indeed sold your soul to the devil.