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how to grow a bully

So, what happened to prompt me to post in the middle of a work-related nervous breakdown is this: I have finally seen what the liberalization of education has done to our school systems.

DJ has been having a problem with a bully. It's the same bully as last year, the same one who took his money, the same one who wouldn't let him play soccer on the playground. This year he has taken to physically threatening DJ.

After chatting the with the mother of DJ's best friend, I realized that my son's rants about this bully were not borne of exaggeration. Apparently DJ's friend is also tormented by Big Bully, to the extent that he cries every morning that he doesn't want to go to school.

I spoke to the teacher about it. The class is unruly, she says. It's the worst class she has ever had. She has no control. DJ and his friend, however, are model students who never do anything wrong.

Well, of course not. They are terrified of even moving around in their seats.

Today I called the principal. He gave me a touchy-feely response about how we must take into consideration the bully's feelings. After all, Mr. Principal said, Big Bully's mother died.

Yes, I say. I am aware that Big Bully's mother died four years ago. For how long will he continue to get a sympathetic pat on the back every time he acts up?

I mean, what is the statute of limitations on using your mother's death as an excuse for atrocious behavior?

Well, Mr. Principal says, we have tried peer mediation and peer review with Big Bully. I sent home a pamphlet that will help his father and step-mother go over the proper way to express anger.

See, that's the thing, I say. He has no reason to be angry at my son or my son's friend. If he wants to express anger, I suggest that the classroom is not the appropriate place to do it.

Oh, says Mr. Principal. When he expresses anger in the classroom, he gets sent up here to me.

And then what happens?

He has to sit on the bench for a few minutes while he thinks about his behavior.

And then?

And then he goes back to class.

And he behaves that way all over again.

Well, says Mr. Principal again, and I can almost see him rubbing his chin thoughtfully. Do you think there is something your son or his friend is doing to egg Big Bully on? Perhaps they have angered him in some way?

I chuckle. I ask if this is not a case of blaming the victims.

Uh, no. I was just wondering why the antagonism between them, he says.

Well, gee. Perhaps if Big Bully spent some time talking to you when he came up for his "punishment" instead of just sitting on a bench staring out the window, you may get him to talk about it. I said something to that effect.

Oh, no, Mr. Principal says. We don't want Big Bully to feel like we are against him. We have to be careful of the children's feelings. We have to be sure not to hurt anyone in the process of healing.

What about my son? What about his feelings and his hurt?

We could take drastic measure and remove your son from the class or arrange for some teaching time in the resource center, away from the other kids.

That seems like what you should be doing for Big Bully, not for his victims.

We need to understand Big Bully and his actions. Perhaps if your son was taken out of the equation we could see what is really going on with the bully, how he behaves when your son is out of the classroom.

At this point I'm ready to ask him if owns a "No blood for oil" t shirt.

He talks for a few more minutes about the mediation programs and the peer programs and the need to understand the Bully's motives. Mr. Principal assures me that they don't take this kind of thing lightly, despite what I may think.

I bring up the subject of Nick, the boy who was the bully while my daughter was at the school. Nick threw a chair at a teacher. Nick cursed the school nurse out. Nick was caught with a knife. Nick used to hide in the girl's bathroom.

Nick was never suspended, never punished. In fact, Nick had the lead role in the school play. They thought it would be good for him.

Mr. Principal says they dealt with Nick the best way the could.

Which was, I say, to not deal with him at all. And then to reward him for his behavior.

I tell Mr. Principal I have to go, it was nice chatting with him and that I would be calling the school district as soon as I hung up with him.

The school district, when made aware of the problems, asked me if I wanted to have DJ speak to the social worker in order to "work out his issues." When reminded that my son was not the one who needed to deal with his issues, the kind woman told me "we have to tread lightly with people like Big Bully. They need to be encouraged, not discouraged. Sending him to counseling will only hurt his self esteem and make him behave worse."

I hung up. Talk about discouraged.

Now, I deal with things my way. Big Bully's father owns the pizza place a few blocks from my house. I'll be taking a ride over there today to deal with this one on one, parent to parent. Though I know other mothers and fathers have gone this route before and returned home with heads bowed, defeated by the Father of Big Bully, also known as Big Bully, Sr., I will not be defeated.

If all else fails, I am just going to teach DJ how to throw a roundhouse punch and knock Big Bully flat on his ass. The hell with peace and appeasement. This is where it gets us. Nowhere.

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I simply do not have the words for this ongoing situation over at Michele's. Her son and classmates are dealing with a bully, mainly by becoming completely withdrawn at school [Read More]

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» Bullies, Redux from The Eleven Day Empire
Check out this utterly appalling and infuriating tale that's related by Michelle at A Small Victory. It concerns her son, [Read More]

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Michele's kid DJ is having problems at school with a bully. The principal of the school is apparently yet another [Read More]

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This pathetic story begins one year ago, in a post from A Small Victory. Seems a bully had been having a grand old time terrorizing Michele's son, so she tried to take action: Today I called the principal. He gave me a touchy-feely response about how w... [Read More]

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Comments

Kudos to you.
I mean that.
It's great that you care enough to take matters into your own hands when you don't get the answers you want.
I'm proud of you(for what it's worth).

Be prepared for some disappointment if yer kiddo beats the hell out of Big Bully. The hammer will come down, and not in your favor. Violence Never Solves Anything, And Such Behavior Is Never Tolerated. Think your kid will have to spend some time sitting on a bench? No. They'll recommend suspension, or something of the sort. Big Bully's feelings got hurt. You can't even make the play that now your kid is the victim because he Acted Out His Anger.

What you should teach your kid is to band with his other friends, find Big Bully wandering off by himself, and ambush him, slap him around a lot, explain to him his social error, and that if he tells anybody, worse beatings will follow. He'll get the point eventually.

Hmmm, think I'll be enrolling my kid in Kung Fu as early as possible. And I'll take it with them so that if they bully other kids I'll still be able to kick their ass.

Do schools not realize that bullies pick on other kids for no reason, simply because they can? I mean, I'm sure there are underlying esteem issues, etc, but they seek out who they perceive as unable to fight back and go after them.

One in particular felt that way about me back in junior high - of course, it wasn't long before I was friends with a very large football player and had him put a stop to it (whether he did it through intimidation or actualy physicality, I care not and know not). Live by the sword, etc etc.

As for my children, they're going to be not-terribly-tall (I'm 5 feet 8, my wife is 5 feet) and have red-hair (we're both redheads) - and I plan to have them enrolled in martial arts as soon as possible. If another kid physically threatens them, they will have my blessing to kick the living crap out of them - we'll deal with the consequences afterward.

The people who say violence never solves anything are the ones who continually get their asses beaten.

If your kid gets in trouble for fighting and gets suspended, take him on a vacation somewhere fun. Fuck the school.

"violence never solves anything" "violence only begets violence" Bullshit! the meek will not inherit the earth and the sooner big bully gets his nose broken the better things will be for your son and all the other victims. Even if your son gets his ass beat, odds are the Bully will move on to easier prey, because as we all know bullies are lazy as well as cowards.

good girl. go talk to the father, and he might actually solve it. and teach dj to fight. the first time he kick's big bully's ass, he might get detention or something, but the nasty little fuck will leave him alone in the future.

in the meantime, print out this entry, and get the principal to sign it, verifying that they were his words. then store it somewhere safe, so you have solid evidence of his negligence when this kid goes postal someday, or one of his victims puts a bullet in his head in the middle of algebra.

bullies don't ever stop being bullies unless someone forces them to stop. he'll do it when he's older, and he'll do it to his wife and kids. i'm proud of you for taking the hard road.

My 7-year old got picked on and I got the same whiny drivel from the school officials. When my son had enough of it, he whacked the older kid in the face with his backpack full of books.

Problem solved with bully.

New problem with school admin. MY kid is now a bully for defending himself!

Solution: Told admin FYVM, kid can defend himself. Suspend him, he'll enjoy the break!

and ditto what brandon said. "you know fighting's wrong, right dj? and you never hurt anybody except in self defense, right? good. pack a bag. we're going to disneyworld." you rock, brandon. will you be my dad?

and andy: speaking as a former skinny redhead kid, if you're a shrieking, whirling ball of orange hair, fists, and steel-toed shoes, you don't need to know karate. ;)

Frankly, I think the ass kicking needs to be delivered to DJ's principal and school district. They need to realize that thier behavior is enabling the bully's behavior, not stopping it. This isn't liberalism, this is experimental child psychology - nothing I ever took in university advocated this style of 'child management'.

It's crap, and you don't need them to dish it to you. It's not DJ's issue, but maybe you need to start talking 'expensive child psychologists' and 'lawsuits to pay the bills'. Maybe that will cause them to wake up - kids who were beaten up have launched some very successful lawsuits against schools who were found negligent for stopping harassment - after it was clearly pointed out to them, and nothing was done.

Teachers aren't parents, but it's the schools responsibility to make sure no one is harassed while on school property.

We had a similar situation in Kelsey's class, Michele. There was one student who acted out repeatedly, and the class actually had an emergency plan for what to do SPECIFICALLY for this one child when he acted up. One group went behind the teacher's desk, another went behind a bookcase, and two students were designated to run for the office. When I found that out, my blood alternately ran cold and boiled.

One day the kid freaked out in the lunchroom and ended up punching the teacher. When the principal refused to remove the child from the classroom, several of the parents went to the school board, and to the district office. Apparently each district has a "Child Advocate". The child advocate sat in the classroom, talked to the kids, and in the end, recommended a special school for the child who had caused the problems.

I don't know if that's an option for you, but you might look into whether your district has a Child Advocate as well.

I wouldn't talk to the father and in a situation like this, talking to the principal is a waste of time. You need to make sure your son gets in a fight with this bully. Win or lose, it doesn't matter. People like that want easy prey and if your son fights, they'll move on. Besides, your son needs to fight with this kid for his own self-esteem.

Just tell him that the next time the bully even looks at him funny, punch him in the mouth and keep going after this guy no matter what happens until he gets pulled off of him.

Win or lose, your kid will be better off and I say that from personal experience.

No... Do not take this path.

I'm sorry, you CANNOT win... but you can lose even worse than you are doing so.

I had a problem with bullies... one day, after taking too much crap from one, I broke a chair over his head (I was much smaller than he was, anything less would have ended up with my face smashed against the nearest hard object, which is what happened when the teacher's attention lapsed anyway).

My sin? My nickname was 'chessmaster' because I was observed playing it one day. Apparently, you are supposed to beat chessmasters' skulls against concrete walls to sharpen their skills.

So, they deicided to put me AND the bully in the Special-Ed problem. Now I was surrounded by nothing BUT bullies. Great.

I got out of the special-ed program... I never belonged in it in the first place... but not before one of them sent me to the hospital.

Do you know what bitterness is? I do. It is hatred that is too strong to go away yet too old to be rage. I will never forget the public school system as a cage of animals.

There is no good solution, but there are indeed worse ones. I am sorry if this seems like cowardace, but I know the effects of insitutionalised nonjudgementalism firsthand.

Long long ago, I had the same problem with a bully in 9th grade. My solution (after 6 months of pointless 'negotiation' and emotional distress) was to drop him face-first (ala Jake the Snake) on the sidewalk in front of the school during lunch period.

He switched schools, I served an hour's detention, and that was that...

Our neighborhood bully, Jay, specialized in sneak attacks. He’d walk up to you, smiling, and punch you in the stomach – or run up behind you and push you into a gravel driveway.

Once he pushed me onto the sidewalk, then ran away. I chased after him, cursing and shouting. After that, he never picked on me again. He still hit other kids, but he’d walk away from me.

I thought it was my withering sarcasm that had scared him away, but my father later confessed that he’d gone over to Jay’s parents’ house and threatened to sue their asses if he pushed me again.

But I’d have to agree with Shel’s comment. If anyone should be threatened with a lawsuit, it should be the school. They really are making life very comfortable for bullies.

Sorry to say it but I think you fell into a "trap" (so to speak) when you were on the phone with the principal. You're not the bully's parent, nor even his principal, he's not your responsibility. Your responsibility is to keep your son safe, and the principal's responsibility is to keep his students safe (and I'm certain that safety takes precedence over self esteem) you should have underscored that. Plus, you should have known the principal would be a classic bureaucratic weenie and you should have dealt with him accordingly, using the appropriate code words to force him to pay attention, especially the one-two punch of "lawsuit" and "publicity".

Not that I want to criticise you, since there's not much you can do to improve the school's problems. I applaud your efforts to teach DJ self-defense, that will provide useful results with regard to bullies. Unfortunately though, if he does defend himself against the bully he runs a high chance of being punished by the school (yes, it's brain-fucked, but that's the way it is these days).

I wish you the best of luck in your efforts. The most important thing is to keep your son safe and to teach him how to provide for his own safety, years in the future whether or not he served a few days in detention will be unimportant, but how he dealt with bullies will be.

Rewarding DJ for beating the bully is likely to make Natalie rebel against you though...

Maybe if you could orchestrate some sort of "Spy Kids" scenario for them...

I agree with John Hawkins. You've shown DJ that the first step is to follow the rules, and report the problem to the authorities. Now that they've refused to take action, it's up to him to protect himself. He and his buddy should beat the crap out of this kid.

I doubt you'll get anywhere with the kid's dad. This behavior is usually, though not always, learned at home.

Oh, and as to sending DJ in to fight this kid. DO NOT DO IT. Why? Because DJ is not prone to violence, and this other kid is.

We're not talking a simple kid scrap. When you send someone who isn't prone to agressiveness/violence against someone who is, he could get hurt. And I don't mean bumps and bruises. I mean hospital stay kind of hurt. Bullies like that are disturbed and there may just be no end to the violence.

Sure, DJ could get beat up. Or this kid could snap, lose it, and beat the living hell out of DJ - and be totally unable to stop himself. Bullies now are not the same as bullies when we were kids - some of these kids are already sociopaths at a very young age.

Anyways - my point - don't send DJ in. You don't know what kind of ticking time bomb this kid is, and I wouldn't suggest antagonizing him to find out.

Maybe the next time DJ gets bullied or punched, he should do what an adult has every legal right to do - call the cops and have the bully arrested. Violence is violence, and this "kids will be kids" nonsense is bullshit.

Frankly, spending some time locked in the back seat of a cop car is exactly what the bully needs.

I am the parent of a former "problem child" (now age 22) It was the school that created the problem in the first place. At first the only problems were that he was a little lazy when it came to completing work and (worse in their opinion) didn't use a properly humble and respectful tone of voice when talking to the teachers. Well, OMG it's the end of the world. Bring out the psychologists; they'll fix everything. Boy did they! The more they tried to "help" the worse things got. But that still wasn't as bad as the damage that school policies did.

The school my kids went to when we lived in Virginia had a policy of suspending every student involved in any fight (or even just argument) regardless of who started it. My son was once suspended for preventing a kid from stealing another kid's bike. Another time he was suspended for holding his notebook up in front of his face as a shield against the kid who was about to hit him.

I'm not saying my son was always the victim. He did his share of stuff and when he did they always rewarded him with 3 days off. Now that's discipline! ....NOT!

This post makes my blood boil! I don't even know where to start, I made several tries at writing something here and I can't begin to explain how I feel about this. I will just say that at 32 years old, I STILL have the urge to hunt down those that bullied me in school and made my life hell. DJ and his buddy should tag team this bullies ass and beat the crap out of him. Preferably outside of school so that they can't do anything to him, but beat the crap out of him!

I was Headmaster for a boarding school in India who had suffered from this kind of "leadership". We had a bunch of Big Bullies. I'm 6'2" and 200 lbs. The problem required a "hands-on" approach, which was hard for the first two months, but MUCH easier soon thereafter.

Shel, knowing what kind of person DJ is, is absolutely right. Sending him in to fight this kid will only make the situation worse.

DJ, despite being the oldest in his class, is the smallest kid in the class. I'm sure that's part of the problem. He does not like violence or fighting (unless it's in a video game, which tells how much the people who think violent video games cause violent tendencies are full of shit) and he shirks away from anything of the sort when confronted with it.

Telling him to knock this kid out will only get him beat up. What I want more is to be able to give him the words he needs to stand up to this kid. The pat "you hurt my feelings when you say those things" is not going to cut it.

For the record, the apple does not fall far from the tree. Big Bully's father is not easily approachable and is one of those tough macho man type guys.

I'm really at a loss. I'm waiting to hear from the president of the school board, whom I called this afternoon.

Thanks for all your suggestions. I'm open to anything.

I was bullied throughout elementary school and middle school (after my hyper spell, I became quiet and withdrawn, won the chess tournament in 2nd grade , would rather read or program computers than play at recess ... in order words, a perfect target). One thing you might want to be careful about is turning the situation around, to DJ's disadvantage.

I vividly remember being in a "sensitive" Catholic school after my hell with the public system and having daily "what's wrong with Nellie... why do you bully her?" talks, involving the teacher and the entire class. It was a way of putting me on display - the teachers thought that they were helping me, by trying to "improve" the behavior that was causing my problems, but to this day it still hurts.

Good luck, and just make sure he knows that a lot of people who were bullied as a child have grown into great people... it can be hard to understand that at a young age, but "this too shall pass". I'm still bitter, but every day I wake up and it's a little less. He's a good kid, from what I've read, and nothing is going to take that away from him.

But hey, after my experiences, when I hear about someone being treated similar to the way I was, I'm all for a good ass kicking now and then, because it wasn't too long ago that I was in their position. ;)

"spending some time locked in the back seat of a cop car" is going to make this kid think he's cool.

defending yourself isn't about violence, it's about self-esteem, and no one's telling michele to send him in untrained. dj's an athletic kid, and obviously has a good pitching arm for throwing one. good. punch.

Michele, I had this same problem with Mark in 3rd grade with a bully. The teacher wouldn't do anything, the prinicpal wouldn't do anything and the disctrict wouldn't do anything. After weeks of going to school almost daily, i final;ly got them to do something, they suspended big bully and moved my son to another class so that when big bully came back to school, my son was no wheres near him. Good luck with this. I hope it goes well. As for Mark, I taught him where to punch anymore bullies in the nose so that they never touch him again. If you hit square on the bridge of the nose full force, it stings like a mother fucker and bleeds instantly.

I'm sorry, but all this PC shit has go to go. Don't give me this "violence begets violence" shit either. The only thing I'm worried about is DJ's self-esteem and his confidence. When I get done with him, he will learn to defend himself. He will stick up for himself. He will not be the agressor, but he will kick that kid's ass. Problem solved by Aunt Lisa. No if's, and's or but's about it.

Way to go, this whole worring about the bullie's feelings is BS.

I think part of my problem is I am projecting my worries onto DJ.

I was the victim of bullies in elementar school. I was the standard "let's pick on her because we need someone to kick around" kid.

I know how it feels to be that kid. I know how it feels to be afraid to go to school. It hurts me that my son is feeling that way, because I know it's killing him even though he won't let on.

The bottom line is, it's not just affecting his school life, but his home life, too. He sits perfectly still in school, never talks and does everything he's told (which his teacher calls a 'model student') and when he gets home all hell breaks loose because he needs to expend that energy he has been holding in all day. He can't talk back to his teacher, he can't yell back at the bullies, so it all comes out when he gets home.

I should have gone with my instincts from when Natalie started school and homeschooled.

One of the problems is that kids don't have access to justice. Thus we have bullies and the only real way to handle the situation is to make your own justice and kick the bullies ass.

But, you know, we have what we call a justice system for adults, which may or may not be a justice system, but it's all we have. I suppose we also have the junior justice version, juvenile justice--still run by adults, however. (Is akin to the Junior Chamber of Commerce?)

Perhaps if Big Bully does anthing to DJ, swear out an assault complaint against Big Bully--send him to the "big boys" justice system. Maybe he'll get the hint. Or maybe he'll also learn from the experience how to be an even bigger and better asshole.

Maybe DJ should just punch his lights.

My daughter complained that a bully was pushing her around at school. I asked my son about it and he said that this kid just likes to push smaller kids around. There are two years difference between my son and daughter.

I told my son that he should look out for his sister and take care of this kid. Go tell the teacher I said. She just gets mad for interrupting her during recess, I tried that one.

The next day I called my daughter and she said that my son got in trouble at school. I asked my son what happened and he went on to explain that the bully pushed my daughter again and he took care of it. What did you do?, I asked. I went up and kicked him in the nuts. The teacher sent me to the principal.

I explained that he should not pick on people but to protect himself and his sister he did a great job. He asked why he got in trouble and I explained what happened to the signers of the Declaration of Indepenence and how sometimes you get punished for doing the right thing.

She never got bullied again.

Good luck on your quest for justice.

If you're really serious about homeschooling, it can work once you've already been in the school system, with some care. I was for 7th & 8th grades and 11th & 12th as a direct result of the lack of quality in the school system and bullying, and would be happy to share my experiences with you via e-mail if it's something you're even remotely curious about, or anyone else.

Having seen my best friend go through years of hell with the stupid school system and her (incredibly bright, incredibly smart-mouthed son) my suggestion would be to find out where it would hurt them most.

Tell them that if nothing gets done and your son gets hurt you are going to sue the school system for every damn penny they got. Get several parents to go along. Better yet, have your lawyer send a letter next time the bully threatens any of the kids. It usually scares them shitless.

And DO get DJ into a self-defense class. The best ones will teach him how to walk away from a fight as well as how to defend himself. Try out several until you find one you feel comfortable with.

Good luck!

Did some surfing...this is kinda cool. The Wounded Child Project...about giving kids who are bullied a voice. Too bad they're in Washington.

I'm with Jason on this: Teach your kid to wallop some ass, but be aware -- I know this from personal experience -- that fighting back against the bully means that the victim is sowing the wind. In other words, make sure your son doesn't get caught.

Good luck, michele. I was DJ when I was his age, and I was unfortunate enough to be part of a school system that catered to the lowest common denominators. My plight as a student abused by my peers drew polite clucking from those in positions of authority, but little else. I endured, if only because I had no choice but to endure. Fighting simply was not an option I felt comfortable with. I wanted no part of the dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest pecking order I was expected to participate in.

I wish you well in your struggle to protect DJ. From where I sit, our schools are so concerned with not "losing" children that they end up losing the very ones they are responsible to protect. This may be seem a bit of a stretch, and I hope it doesn't offend anyone, but I wonder if the Columbine tragedy could have been prevented. What IF administrators had simply done their jobs over the years? What IF they had protected the kids who needed it?? What IF...?

Oh dear gods, this is one of my biggest fears...and my son is only in kindergarten!

Michele, if Big Macho Bully doesn't cooperate, hit him where it hurts, fucking play dirty...threaten to sue his ass, he's got a business to lose. Of course this won't magically turn him into a good parent, too fucking late for that, so Aunt Lisa will also need to teach DJ that roundhouse. And might I recommend the knee to the groin as well?

Goddammit, ENOUGH FUCKING EXCUSES!!! Parent your children, people, or get the fuck out of the gene pool.

Michele, I wish you would let me go talk to principal, cause he'd be reall sorry! or i will go talk to guido dad myself, i have no problem dealing with assholes like this and besides Lew carries a gun and will right there with me!!! Please let me do this!!!

This is why I'm so grateful my kid is in college now. We dealt with much the same situation (with a girl) and even had the police called....good luck!

Glad to see Stacy's feeling better...

The last thing you need is another bit of parenting advice. You did right. You're doing right. The results are in the fact that your kids aren't known as "Big Bully" on someone else's blog.

For the record, though, my two-cents is to keep pursuing the proper authorities. They'll eventually do something--even if it's not exactly the right something. Then, you take it from there.

Just let DJ know that no one is allowed to touch him, and it's ok to fight back. I learned in fourth grade that it's amazing how fast a bully runs when the nerdy kid has had enough and punches him in the nose...

I have to say I agree with most of the posters here. Teach your son to defend himself and give him your blessing to kick some bully ass, in self-defense only. Preferably OFF school grounds.

If there are consequences, deal with them. Cross that bridge if and when you come to it. In this case, I believe the consequences are worth it.

There was a bully in my school -- the principal's son, in fact. Big football player Texas frat rat type. A real Bubba. He picked on me all through my sophomore year until finally, one spring day, I had enough and smashed his fucking face in with a 2X4. Broke his nose and shattered both cheekbones.

There were certainly consequences -- I ended up graduating from a different school after being expelled.

I've never regretted it. Primarily because I can promise you his bullying days ended that spring day when he had his face caved in -- in front of all his Bubba friends -- by a 105 lb. girl.

Does the "Scott Farkis Affair" ring a bell? I can see DJ pulling a Ralphie on that Big Shit. Expletives and all. Oooooooohhhh.... I'm just soooo angry, I want to beat that kid up myself.

This is what I hate about kids today - or I guess I should say what I hate about parents.

For God's sake don't punish the little brat for picking on other kids! Of course not! That might hurt his wittle feelings. (Screw the kids whose lives have been made hell. Their feelings don't count.) Let the little bully sit and "think" (about how good it felt to do it) and, as a bonus, give him some time away from class (where he's probably barely passing).

I'm so sick of "time-outs" and all this touchy-feely shit. When I was in grade school we lived in fear of being sent to the principal because not only would he spank you, your parents would beat your ass when they had to come pick you up! Now its like parents encourage their little darlings in their horrible behavior! A teacher I know told the horror story of a classroom bully who's mother would pick him up at the principal's office (on a regular basis). The kid would whine and cry that he wanted to go home NOOOOOOW. She'd pat him on the head, tell him she'd get him a toy & they would stop at McDonald's as soon as they left then scream (literally) and curse at the principal and teacher about how they were "abusing" her little precious baby. (And, yes, she literally called him her "little precious baby" once.) She honestly believed her kid was an angel & the school was just "making up all these problems". This is why I should never have kids or be a teacher. I would have to slap her & her kid.

I say teach DJ to kick the shit out of the little bastard (and throwing in some really good insults while he's doing it would be nice, too). And from now on, I'd send your complaints to the school in writing & insist on answers in writing. Then you'll have documentation to threaten them with a lawsuit for their inability to insure your son if safe.

Been there, had that done to me, biggest kid in the class, so my complaints were ignored. Finally caught one of them, knocked him down, sat on him, and gave him a bloody nose. Neither he nor his buddy ever bothered me again; but that was almost fifty years ago. Neither of them remember that happening (others do) but they do remember that they didn't think it would be safe to tease me. In today's schools ... who knows, your son is probably going to be hauled off and convicted of felony assault and battery.

You should take DJ and his friend to self-defense class in any case; they have to learn the easy part of self-defense, how to end a fight. (They've already learned the hard part -- not to start them.)

There are probably other victims; form a committee, then as the committee (so that individual students won't be reprized against -- reprized, is that a word?) write letters, talk to schoolboard officials, people from the state who monitor compliance, request transfers to other schools.

In addition to the advice given, go through the school handbook with a fine toothed comb and see if you can use their written policy against them. I've got friends with more kids than sense (blended families) and Lori has gone after the school on more than one occasion with a variety of issues.

and them they get your kids.

bully grabbed my daughter's head and smashed it into a metal signpost.

nothing happened.--worse than nothing. the next day I decided to stand with her to make sure that there'd be no repeats--the kid shit himself when he saw me coming.

my daughter didn't get hit that day.

Next day the little shit had the prnicipal as a guard. She told me I had no right to scare the kid. I saud fine. Will you keep him from beating on my daughter.

She said that she had no jurisdiction off of school property. I told her to shut the fuck up.

The kid didn't quit--he got my daughter on the bus.

She managed to stop him--and his friends

She got suspended.

Why? Because while they were hitting her she said "Leave me alone or I'll kill you"

She said 'kill'.

Suddenly, beaten up, black-eyed and set upon by a pack of morons, SHE was in the wrong.

michele, stick with your children, have someone pick them up and teach them to fight--off school property. Big Bully will be forever treasured as were all his forebears, all you can do is avoid the situation and fight back when avoidance is impossible.

My daughter's suspension was the best two days we could make them--movies, treats and rewards. Never let them teach your children that their way is the right way.

I have to go with the "threaten lawsuit and publicity" camp -- with all the attention on anti-bully programs out there, why the hell is his school taking the opposite approach?

And the martial arts idea-- will help him expel some of that energy he's holding in, and it will give him confidence.

I wish someone had gone to the bat for me like you are for DJ. What a difference it would have made! Unfortunately, somewhat like you, it wasn't any one person. It felt like everyone...

Fuckin' A! Go get 'em, Michele! If you'd like, I bet a few hundred blogo-parents would come over to help you make your point!

me again.

I fume over this thing--any of it. Be it my own story--which I've put forth, my daughter's own travails--or hearing about others who are going or have gone through it.

The schools are often no help--but individual teachers can be. Look for sympathy and help there.

Anything DJ does in retaliation will be held against him as if he is the agggressor--but making sure DJ is prepared is better than the alternative.

Taking the beatings is far worse for you than anything.

My story is fighting back to an insane degree--a friend went the other route.

He didn't fight back. Ever. Today he cannot deal with strife whatsoever. He can't stand up for himself. He can't make decisions easily. He gets taken advantage of by any idiot with a big mouth and a forceful manner.

So let DJ know you'll support him should fighting happen--and make sure he's ready.

The last bit, going to the bullies parents, can work--many parents are hugely embarassed by the whole thing.

But it can backfire. The parents of bullies are often bullies themselves.

So good luck--and be careful

I kid you not - while I'm reading this entry, I'm listining to "Jeremy" by Pearl Jam. Total coincidence.

The problem with school yard bullies is that their victems are usually to young to understand the best way to psychologically destroy them Sure, you can fight back, but a fat lot of good that's going to do you if your smaller then the bully.

The best way to beat a bully is, as someone else already said, to go after them with a large group of friends, slap them around a bit, and tell them nobody is going to tolerate it. Being one against ten has a dramatic effect on the bully's willingness to give other kids shit.

Also, go buy DJ a copy of "Ender's Game". It'll teach him all he needs to know about schoolyard realpolitik.

I wish I had some easy solutions for you, Michelle...all I can do is wish you luck. Fortunately (for me, anyway) my kids are now out of high school and don't have to deal with this crap anymore.

My son had almost the opposite problem of yours. Despite the fact that he was as big (if not bigger) than any kid in his class (or the one ahead, for that matter), he got picked on a lot because he was a open-hearted, good-natured kid who just wanted to get along with everyone. While he only got in one or two actual scuffles, he mostly had to deal with verbal harassment from the knuckleheaded, WWF and NASCAR loving, snuff dipping good-ol-boy sons of good-ol-boy fathers who didn't give a shit one way or another how their kids acted as long as they didn't act like a sissy and cause them grief. Of course, Britt was into none of this and was pretty much a square peg in High School (kinda like his Dad, I guess, except girls liked him). We were always having to remind him to turn the other cheek whenever possible, but if it didn't help then he had our permission to smack the shit out of someone and we would deal with the consequences. As time went by, he kinda found some common ground with most of his classmates, played football (which, I think, went a long way towards helping him get along) and has managed to escape relatively unscathed, having graduated in 2000. Of course, his life took him in some unexpected directions that weren't directly related to his school situation, and not always in positive ones...but he's still a pretty good kid and is trying to find his niche in the world.

All I can say is hang in there. There have been many good suggestions posted here already, hopefully one of them will work for you. Sometimes things just work out on their own.

I worked in a school for a number of years and watched this sort of thing being condoned because most educators are, in a word, cowards when it comes to confronting behaviour or the parents of behaviour problems.

Do you have an elected school board? Raise shit with each and every member. Do you have a local newspaper? A sympathetic reporter?

When I was confronted with this years ago, I finally went to the local police detachment. The bullying magically stopped.

It's funny. Coming out of a high school job two years ago. The in school programs were all about stopping bullies, because the bullied come to school with guns and kill (a la Columbine).

Some bullies back off, some don't. The timebomb analogy.

How about an order of protection? Get the police involved?

The principal, the teacher(s) "supervising" the playground, and the teacher of each class has a custodial responsibility for each of the children in that class. I'd at least threaten to swear out a criminal assault (and/or battery) complaint against the principal and the responsible teachers for failure to excercise appropriate supervision over the bully if any of this behavior is going on at the school. Similarly, threaten the jerk's father with the same thing

Make sure you document every time that you speak to the child's parent or to any school (or school board) official about this issue. If you can show that you've raised this issue repeatedly and that they've not taken any action, it should be much easier to show that they've not been responsible.

go aunt lisa!

my best friend, who is now a scary muthafucka, was the little guy in school and always getting beat up. he let it get around that he was taking martial arts lessons. when the big bully called him on it, he was perfectly calm, and told him that he could break a cinderblock in half with his bare hands.

he got the now-intrigued bully to hold the cinderblock for him, and began the "huaaa-aaa-aa"-ing and winding up to hit the cinderblock, just like in the movies.

the bully's hands were now full and he was distracted, right? dumbass. allen punched him as hard as he could in the face, and ran for the hills. as i recall, dropping the cinderblock on his feet ended up breaking his feet and toes as well as his nose.

sometimes brains and playing dirty helps too. :)

Jane is right, Michele. A little discussion with the police would probably do wonders for the bully.

When he was in middle school, my younger brother and a friend were playing around with a girl they were both friends with. They ended up pulling on her backpack until she had to sit down to keep from falling.

Probably harmless. I don't think my brother was really picking on her - but in any case, the girl's father was unhappy enough about the situation to call the police, who showed up to have a chat with my father and my brother about what constitutes assault. And that he could have been charged for it if the girl's father had wanted to press charges. My brother realized pretty quickly how serious it was.

Just an idea.

And why is it, in this day with all the PC bullshit, that everyone is so worried about protecting bullies and not the ones they're hurting?

If it hasn't been mentioned before, I think it's time for the school officials to read this recent news story out of Canada.

If I ever have kids, I'm homeschooling them. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I've heard someone at RWN express this opinion in the comments: In the 1970s, in the aftermath of Vietnam, liberals took over the school system and left the military to conservatives. Now Johnny can't read, but we can kick some ass with almost no casualties.

Everyone should read Heather MacDonald's The Burden of Bad Ideas. It deals with various problems facing America, but one chapter that is really moving is called "Why Johnny's Teacher Can't Teach." After I read it, I cried, feeling sorry for the kids who go to public schools in the inner city. The people who run education departments at our colleges are such assholes.

Michele, instead of martial arts classes that teach ass-kicking, look into something like Aikido, which teaches how to subdue an attacker. It'll teach him how to turn a punch coming at his face into an armlock that'll have the bully on the ground and unable to move...
And good luck. I've been in DJ's place and only made it through because I was removed from school for "emotional problems", i.e. not wanting to go to school because of the bullies.

I don't think sending dj or a group of his friends to fight this bully is the best idea. if this kid is really strong and/or really disturbed they could get hurt. I think talking to the father is a good first step, but if that doesn't work I have an alternate suggestion. Why don't you talk to the bully directly? wait for him on his way to or from school and explain that you beat the living shit out of him if he touches or bothers your kid again. Feel free to get really graphic,SCARE HIM. If you get a call from the father or the principal deny everything or explain that you're still getting over the emotional trauma of the Yankees losing the world series.

Bill, baby, Aikido is ALL about hurting someone. I recommend Judo because it doesn't matter how much smaller you are than your opponent, it's all about using their own weight and momentum against them.

My Aikido classes scared me...my Judo classes liberated me.

I may be a peacenik, but I think the way the school is handling the situation is ridiculous. Incredibly one-sided. I hope you're able to get results with Big Bully Sr.

When I was kid, I was taught never hit anyone under any circumstances. Tell the teacher. I was very popular, but I was still bullied - there weren't many other blonde haired & blue eyes kids in the school, so I was an easy target. This girl named Rita kicked my ass every day after school for a week before my best friend Thomasina taught me how to throw a punch. My mom's vision of peace and rainbows and happy children was nice, but I had to kick Rita's ass to get her to leave me alone.

I say that Kat has got the picture. "See that? That's his nose. Hit him as hard as you can right there, as soon as he's within reach, and then stand back and watch what happens."

If DJ can land that shot, then the little bastard will fold right up.

Look: there are enormous lessons in reality wrought all through this. For one thing, there is the natural fact that things like "protection" are never going to be available at all times. Whether confrontations actually develop, there will always be the prospect, and if it does happen, then that will be a fact against which no false ideal of protection by anyone else will stand. Throughout his life, if your son is met with any sort of predation by anyone else, it will be his responsibility to fight it off.

Now, this might seem a harsh thing at his age, but you, yourself, know that, for instance, you're not going to go to school with him and hold his hand through every day and every minute of that experience. The fact is a fact: there is no protection.

And defense is an act that requires no justification. This is not a serious moral problem from which he will take ambiguity: he could knock that kid's block off the next time he steps up, and DJ would be right. That's enough, and if the school doesn't know that, then the sooner he's out of their clutches, the better.

If it comes to this, and DJ can muster the momentary fortitude it will take to blast this little shitbag squarely in the nose (and it'll work, I'm telling you), then he will come away with a lifelong confidence in himself, as well as in what's right.

Goddammit.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

God, what bullshit about "is DJ egging him on"!

When I was a BABY, the next door neighbor ASSHOLE, who was probably about 7 years older than me, used to pick on me... when I'd be outside with my 70+ y.o. grandmother!!! He picked on me till I was 7 or so! Fortunately, his parents divorced and he moved with his dad. We even went to court because he had been bullying me and I went crying to my dad (we were all outside), and my dad ran after him. Then a few days later, 5 officers show up at our house and ARREST my dad for assault on a minor. Even though he didn't touch him (well, he threw a cigarette at him and it missed!). ANYWAY, my parents won in the trial... I guess it may have helped that my mom is a legal secretary, access to good lawyers, and that the scum (NICK MOUTOS is his name, and I really could give a FLYING FUCK who knows it) actually showed up to court in a ripped shirt and old jeans!! MAN did his mom, (JUDY MOUTOS, now JUDY COURTNEY) have a fucking fit when my dad was cleared of charges!!

UNFORTUNATELY, his dumb-ass sister... back then TINA MOUTOS (Tina was her nickname, her real (maiden) name is VIRNELLE FOTINI MOUTOS [no wonder she was a bully, huh??])... was in my grade, so the bullying continued through her. But it never got physical... and whenever she picked on me, I never looked her in the eye, just kept my head down. But then one day, she was picking on me in the courtyard of an apartment complex, with LOTS of kids around (EVERYONE silent, wondering what would happen). For some reason, I just looked up from the ground and just looked her straight in the eyes. I still remember her eyes to this day (this was 20 years ago). I don't really know what kind of message I was conveying, but after a second, she said to her friends, "Let's go, she's not worth it".

Of course, she still harrassed me, but after that day I had no problem yelling back at her. But she still made my life hell.

And that's us going to the same school and her also living right next door. Until her mom married the assistant principal of my junior high and they moved... right across the street.

Wow, I haven't relived that in a while! I do, though, wonder about bullies today... if they're not way more off-balance than 20, 30 years ago. I don't know what to say, other than good luck... and threatening the school/school board with a lawsuit really sounds like the best thing so far. And homeschooling, if it's feasible.

My kid was a peacemaker and popular with his peers. His "bully"'s dad died in 5th grade. For a long time I urged my "DJ" to tough it out, understand that "bully boy" was going through a hard time, etc. Finally one day I had had it and just turned him loose, telling him to do whatever he had to do. Funny, he never had to do a thing. Just being empowered with parental approval must have made a difference in his attitude.
My younger son, who dealt with conflict with humor, surprised us even more when he whalloped the crap out of his bully one day. Left us both gape-mouthed.
Personally, I don't think homeschooling is the solution. Eventually, all of us must deal with a bully or two. Better to learn how as soon as possible and learn how to deal with it head on instead of retreating.
Good luck!

65 Posts in record time... Can anyone doubt that this is a personal, and emotional, subject for many people?

With the amount of reaction we are seeing, might this not be some sort of indicator that the "survival of the evillest" enviornment in schools is redlining beyond anything sane or reasonable?

I thought maybe that my experience was unique, or fairly unusual. It seemed so at the time, for certain.

But a great many people seem to have experienced this, or had their kids experience it.

What was this crap teachers' unions have said about homeschooling not allowing kids to develop social skills?

If a parent kept their kids home and beat them up regularly, would this be viewed as valuable life experience? What keeps the NEA in jobs is what is good for the kids, apparently.

Tyrrany.

>I'm open to anything.

Every place I've lived in for the last ten years has had a sleazeball lawyer who advertises on cable. (My favorite was Jim "the Hammer!" Shapiro. His ads featured a really cheezy CGI gavel and the tagline "Yeah I'm a bastard, but I'll be your bastard!")

Your town must have one too. Call him. School boards and local governments have real deep pockets.

Hank sez: "Perhaps if Big Bully does anthing to DJ, swear out an assault complaint against Big Bully--send him to the "big boys" justice system. Maybe he'll get the hint."

Even if he doesn't, I bet principal asshole sure will when the cops show up at his school. And the more often that happens, the harder it is for him to explain to the school board.

Michele, I know you must be really frustrated.

I think self-defense is definitely a good option for DJ - especially judo.

I'd suspect that DJ radiates a certian 'physical uncertianty' about himself. The small and the weak speak their vulnerabilities in a hundred different ways - body language says more about how we feel about ourselves than we can verbalize (sometimes).

There's nothing wrong with being small or physically weak. It's high time we shed the conception that the only real men are the big brutes who can beat the crap out of other people. Who are the true men in power these days? Those with brains. Bill Gates can grind you into dust without raising a finger, and we all know he's not a bicep-ridden kind of man.

God knows I was one of the 'weaker' people in school, and I probably radiated my physical insecurities by my actions - and of course, for someone who is looking to overwhelm and overpower someone, you'll go for the people who give the impression they cannot take care of themselves.

This isn't anything we can fix, per se. If you're the smallest one in your class, you're going to feel insecure about your physical impression, your physical nature.

DJ's not a big guy. All the finesse, agility and skill a person of smaller stature may have can be eradicated with one brute force punch. DJ obviously understands rules, and guidelines, and would understand that a self-defense course wouldn't mean he could kick all of his tormentors asses, and he'd certainly understand that he doesn't have to be scared all the time.

Even though he's small, having that sense of being able to at the very least defend himself would save him a lot of grief in the future. Sekimori is right in suggesting judo - it's a non agressive way of self-defense that should give him a better sense of his physical nature - that even though he's small, he can take care of himself.

And I think that's really what matters, right? And it's been mentioned above that this might help him in other arenas - give him a constructive way to burn of excess energy, give him goals, give him back some of the self-esteem that being smaller has robbed him of, and teach him about restraint, as well.

(damn my psychology degree)

Seki, I guess it depends on the focus of the teacher. The point is, learning subdual techniques through Aikido or whichever martial art is about defending yourself and, more importantly, subduing an attacker so that the fight ends there.
Like Michele says, DJ is small and we don't want him getting hurt - but we do want him to be able to end a fight if someone else starts one.
And Michele- I'm with the people who say get the police involved. Make it real to the morons at school; they're pretending it's all an intellectual exercise and Someone Else's Problem - make it theirs, in the only language they understand: liability.

Michele, it's good to know that there are parents who'll fight the enablers in administration. This is one of the reasons I couldn't bring myself to go into teaching. I knew I wouldn't be able to deal with these situatios any better as a teacher than I had been able to as a student.

Do what you have to do, up to and including bringing criminal charges against this kid if he lays a hand on your son.

Diety knows I would.

You've gotten plenty of advice already, my heart goes out to you and your son. My son went through something similar over many years. Finally, on a class trip (to build teamwork) in 6th grade, the kid just went one step too far. This was a huge size-wise bully, and my son isn't that big. My son just decked him. The fight didn't last long before they were pulled apart, and they were both sent home. He may have mouthed off to him after that, but he never bullied him again, nor did any other kid (well, except those 8 kids downtown that mugged him and his friend -- just professional bullying, I guess).

I think this is a deep, personal issue for a lot of people, and too many kids get stranded emotionally on this.

I don't know what state you live in, but do the laws provide for a juvenile battery statute ? DJ gets hit again, have the cops haul Big Bully off to get fingerprinted. Provides documentation of the incident, and then you can drop a dime on Principal with child welfare about aiding and abetting child abuse (DJ) and contributing the the delinquency of a minor (Big Bully). With a record of the event (the police incident report, even if BB doesn't get a ride to juvie), you've documented the problem, established responsibility between the parties, and covered DJ's and your asses when DJ punches BB's light out the next time.

Michelle,

I wish I had a good experience to share, but my children's experiences mimicked that one ten fold. It doesn't get better, it gets worse. Then entire structure is built around holding no one accountable for their actions, except the parents who buck the system. Any attempts to solve the problem with the school will result in punative actions against YOUR child.

There is a time to fight and a time to surrender. Surrender in this case involves removing your child from the school.

To quote myself:
In my experience, you're never quite sure what incident caused you to start gathering straws, but once you start, you'll eventually reach a breaking point. With my daughter, the breaking point was a meeting with the school principal. The gang of girls that had been bothering Wendy in the girl's locker room was escalating again. I had sent a letter to the school about a week earlier in hopes of getting it resolved. The ring leader, Megan, had mocked and taunted my daughter so badly a few days before that I couldn't bring myself to force her to go to school the next day. I'd call these days, mental health days. Technically, she wasn't sick, but sick can have a much broader meaning in the overall health of a child. I let her stay home. After a few days though, it was time for her to go back. I let her sleep in that morning with the agreement that we'd go to the school together. We'd talk to them about the problem and demand that they remove Wendy from gym class.

Neither the principal, nor her teachers, had given us any clue that anything had been done since I'd sent in the last letter. They hadn't even acknowledged my letter. When we arrived, we were greeted first by one of Wendy's nice teachers. She sympathized with the problem and understood immediately that things had escalated to a point of no return. Even with that understanding, she didn't think that removal from gym class was an option. She took our case to the principal who agreed to have a meeting with Megan (the ring leader) and Wendy.

Without talking to us first, the principal asked us to wait, while she called Megan to her office. The meeting began with Wendy and me explaining the series of events in the locker room. Unbeknownst to us, the school had spoken to Megan, and the principal was under the impression that we were bringing in a new list of grievances. She had thought her previous talking session with Megan had been of no benefit. Upon discovering that we were simply following up on last week's events, the principal attacked Wendy for rehashing old-news. I jumped in to explain that we were unaware that such a meeting had taken place, but it was too late. Had I not been there to interrupt the Principal's tirade, I know that Wendy would not have stood a chance to defend herself. The principal had decided that Wendy was trying to get Megan in trouble for something that had happened last week (that had already been dealt with as far as she was concerned) and set on Wendy like a rabid dog. There we were, a child being told to trust that adults would protect her, being attacked by the very person that was supposed to help her.

In hindsight, it was clear what had happened. The principal was embarrassed. She hadn't talked to us before she called Megan to her office. That was her first mistake, she didn't find out why we were there. Her second mistake was calling Megan to her office without reviewing the file and discovering that no follow-up with us had taken place. So, she decided to make Wendy the scapegoat for her own mistakes. They had to blame someone for their mistake of dragging Megan out of class, and why not an 11 year old girl?

That was it. Wendy chose to go home with me rather than go to class that day. She was devastated and shocked. And, so was I. I could have bitten the head off a rattlesnake. At home, after hugs, sympathetic talks with Wendy and then a furious, private, retelling of the tale with my husband, I drafted the withdrawal letter.
You can continue to fight, just make sure your kid is no longer in the crossfire.

We had a case here in Georgia a few years ago where a bully was allowed to go on picking on people. One day he decided to jump a kid as they got off the school bus. The kid he hit was someone he had been picking on for a long time - and the school system had ignored the parents pleas.

Well, the boy that got hit died 3 days later from a brain hemmorage. He'd been hit in the back of the head (oh what fun to hit someone from behind) and it caused him to die.

The bully was charged with murder. He fought the charges for a long time - but finally was sentenced to prison (I can't remember how long).

Why am I telling you this? So you won't let the school BS you into submission. Remember, this is your son. He depends on you. Don't let him down.

What you need is a course of action. Decide what you want done about the bully. Then tell the school district what you want done. Then contact a reporter for both the televeision news as well as the newspaper. Tell them you have a Special Interest story.

Tell them your story. How you are blown off and ignored. How you fear your son will be harmed more than he has already been. And not only your son, but the other children that are targets of this bully.

I'm sure at that point you'll have attorneys contacting you. I'm not one for suing, but I sure believe in threatening to sue. Follow through if you must.

Be sure your son understands he is not the one with the problem. It is the bully that has the problem..

Do not rest until you have