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explosions in tel aviv

CNN online is reporting two huge explosions in Tel Aviv. No link yet, but CNN on tv says at least 20 people have been hurt. More as updates come in.

Now they are reporting "several" deaths.

update: Fox News is reporting 15-20 deaths.

CNN link

Not that I needed the confirmation, but:

Two homicide bombers blew themselves up in downtown Tel Aviv on Sunday, killing at least 10 bystanders in the first such attack in an Israeli city since November.

The old two-explosion ruse. Set one bomb off, wait for rescuers to come in and then the other bomb goes off.

Forget about a wall around the Palestinians. Just bury them instead. Palestine is nothing but a day camp that trains terrorists.


Is everyone in Palestine a terrorist? Was everyone in Afghanistan involved with the Taliban? Is everyone in the United States a member of the Ku Klux Klan?

Surely you know better than to think of everyone in an entire country as being the same?

Matt, I have no use for a country where mothers dress their children up as suicide bombers and parade them around in school pageants. I have no use for a land where tv stations show commercials telling children how wonderful it is to be a martyr. I have no use for a place where women cry with joy when their kids kill innocent children. I have no use for a place that pays the families of suicide bombers. I have no use for people for whom terrorism is the answer to everything, who are mired in a cycle of violence because their children are taught to praise terrorists, who actively seek out to kill innocent people, and as many as they can at one time.

The United States is not totally immersed in the culture of the Ku Klux Klan. Our schools don't have murals of klan leaders painted on the buildings. Our schools are not named after people stand for the Aryan Nation. We do not fill our textbooks with jihads against people of different religions.

Therein lies the difference between a country that defies terrorism and a country that propogates it.

All good points, Michele. But "just bury them" sounds a little too much like "throw them into the sea,' - or however it is that nutcake Palestinians (and other Arabs) express their ultimate goal.

Also, I wonder how many people the KKK has killed in the last ten years. How many have islamofascists killed in the last week?

When most people disagree with you, they will argue or call you names. When you say Islam doesn't mean peace, love, and day-care centers, those involved in that society will kill you to prove it does. Case closed.

You know what, I say we level Brooklyn, I heard there were some innocent people killed in a drive by shooting by some gang from there. By the way what's the youngest kid you saw wearing gang land style clothing?

Before I get flamed to death, I'm being sarcastic to make a point. I disagree with wide sweeping statements. I think that Israel should be able to take all means it deems necessary to protect itself, but I can't see the complete elimination of all men, women, and children within a certain geographic area as a reasonable approach. The Russians are trying it in Chechnya and it hasn't worked yet.

As for Muslims. I happen to work with several Muslims, half of the family across the street from us our Muslim. I have no problem with Muslims or their religion. I do have a problem with Muslims advocating Sharia law, I have a problem with Muslim fundamentalists, and I have a problem with Islamic extremists. These are the equivalent of slavery, fundamentalists, and the KKK, respectively. But I get a little pissed by people saying all Muslims are bad ... but somehow that rule doesn't apply to Christians even though the KKK was originally spawned as a "patriotic, Protestant" organization. Yet I don't here outrage at all Protestants (nor should there be). Right after 9/11 all of the Muslims I knew denounced vehemently that horrible act and were horrified someone could do something like that. Now? Now they're scared that this will turn into a Muslim witch hunt.

Might I humbly suggest you might reconsider if black kids started wrapping themselves in semtex and nails, and blew themsleves up in suburban shopping malls?

And if they claimed a particular section as their very own(like, say, California), and made up a crapload of fake history claiming that they have an ancestral claim to the entire country?

If they aided and assisted a russian or chinese invasion of the U.S., so long as they had assurances that all non-blacks would be driven into the sea?

If the president of "New California" denounced terrorism, but is linked over and over to racist terrorist attacks?

Might you then feel just a bit differently?

Disgusting. Moral. Equivelance.

End of story.

Israel is justified in doing whatever they think is necessary to defend there nation. All I'm saying is that indiscriminate killing to stop indiscriminate killing hasn't ever seemed to work. The English tried it with the Scots, the Mongols tried it in Eastern Europe, the Germans tried it on the Jews, the Hutus on the Tutsis (or vice versa). About the only place I can recall it working is on the European colonization of the Americas ... but it was actually diseases that did most of the work in that case. But I'm willing to concede that there is a possibility that complete elimination of a group may lead to the elimination of that particular threat. So lets take your example, we start indiscriminately wiping out California. What do you think the black population that actually didn't support the Californians would begin to think? How about the Mexican population? Or the Chinese? Could we contain the situation to California?
If I could be convinced that wiping out a population could be a permanent (or even a pretty good) solution to a problem, I would be a bit more likely to consider it as an option.

I have very little issues with what Israel has done ... in fact I think they are being as even handed as can be expected in the situation. Maybe even a little bit on the "too nice" side.

As for the moral equivalence ... probably a bit over the top ... but I still am not convinced that indiscriminate killing will solve anything.

I realized that I did one of my own pet peeves, and pointed out a problem, but offered no ideas on how to get to a solution. Now I don't think I can bring peace to the Mid-East (I can't get my kids to stop fighting). But I think GWB was kinda on the right track. You force a clear choice. You're either with us or against us. You figure out policies to win the moderates to your side, and give them incentives to support your side. And this is the beauty and strength of democracy ... ordinary people like it, ordinary people don't want war ... they want nice schools for their kids, they want opportunity, they would like to live their lives in peace. Use that to its maximum advantage. Once you can clearly seperate who's with you and who's against you ... things become much simpler.

Hey, I didn't say it would be a good suggestion, I just said I couldn't point out a problem without an attempt at a solution

Sometimes, in those rare instances where an entire culture is dedicated to wiping another out, there isn't any acceptable answer.

Even transferring the lot of them to other Arab nations probably won't work, because they will come back and KEEP killing. But it might reduce the daily bloodshed to a tolerable level.

It says much that if genocide was EVER justifiable, it would be in this instance. But how much slaughter would it take to cause the Jews to commit a holocaust with their own hands, for whatever reason, even survival?

The Palistinianians seem determined to find out the answer, by forcing the question of "Us, or them?".

Remember: these people left Isreal in anticipation of moving back in after the Jews were exterminated. Its as if you seperated all the KKK members from Bull-Conner era America, put them in camps, let them multiply, pass down and purify their hate, and then set them loose on downtown L.A. with guns and bombs.

That is why, after you seperate the nutjobs from the general population, you don't have much of a general population left.

And that is why comparing them to any normal group of people always fails.

I agree that the Palestinian culture is teaching hate, what I'm disagreeing with is that all Palestinians are buying into it. I admit that I don't know ... all I have is to go on is documentaries and news stories. But those do seem to indicate that there are moderate Palestinians. I cannot say what percentage of the population. I've met people and discussed life with people from Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Israel, but have not to date met anybody personally who was a Palestinian.

If people were to say all members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Intifadah and its supporters have allied themselves with hate ... I'd agree with them and support their comments. When that definition is broadened to extend beyond ideological organizations to geo-political organizations, I believe it becomes overgeneralized.

I think Israel is justified in its actions because the politcal arm of the Palestinians has not done enough to police and eliminate those types of organizations. If the statements were that war is justified on the Palestinian (not state but can't think of the correct term) I'd agree. Hate must be eliminated, but in a coldly calculated way so as not to prevent the spread of more hate ... a very difficult task.

As an aside ... you'd find that most wesern democratic military's would balk at an indiscriminate war. Its actually against their code of ethics and it would be an unlawful order. The military will only attack targets that are deemed a present or a clear imminent threat, and will try to avoid non-combatant casualties, to the extent it doesn't interfere with their legitimate missions.

The problem is that we aren't just dealing with hate as you know it... we are dealing with hate purified, magnified, reinforced until it is something else entirely.

Hate is coacaine. The Palis have discovered crack.

Think of the person you hate the most. Would you honestly if you had the chance murder this person and his/her family, even be willing to sacrifice your life to do so?

I submit that you have no concept of hate as they do. You are still human.

If there ARE moderate palestianians, they dare not speak openly. They can be murdered far easier than a Jew. This makes it difficult to detect their presence.

And you are right that Isreal's military would resist a order to wipe out the camps. That is why they are humans, while their opponent are animals.

Like I said... there is an unknown 'breaking point' beyond which large protions of Isreal may decide that their survival depends on ending the threat by any means necessary.

I hope, for Isreal's sake, that she is never pushed to that limit...

I can barely believe that people commenting on this post have advocated genocide as a solution to anything. Killing people is almost never an answer to anything (like having the death penalty doesn't reduce murder rates), but killing (or more accurately, trying to kill) an entire ethnic group would never do anyone any good.

Do people not see a slight inconsistency in condemning Palestinians for killing Israeli civilians and then saying that Israelis should kill Palestinian civilians?