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winer weiner whiner

Winer, Weiner, Whiner....whatever

"What kind of a country is so selfish that it doesn't see that 9-11 was tiniest big tragedy viewed from a global perspective. What about famine in Africa? What about AIDs?"

That's Mr. Winer speaking.

It amazes me that such a self-important person would place so little importance on the death of thousands.

Maybe we don't want to view this tragedy from a global perspective. Why are all the naysayers dragging famine and AIDS into this anyhow? Can we not speak of our own "tiny" tragedy without comparing it to others?

What about famine and AIDS anyhow? Did anyone who wrote about September 11 ever say that because America suffered this tragedy that no other sorrow in the world means anything?

Maybe it is the way in which the victims of September 11 died - all at once, in a violent, completely unforeseen manner - that makes it so striking.

You cannot discount the death of all those innocent victims in such an offhand manner just because people are dying elsewhere. Yes, people die every day. There are natural disasters and mass murders and lack of food and water and medicine contributing to death all over the globe. But that does not mean that we should consider the death of all the WTC victims as a "a small upheaval." Tell that to the families of the victims.

"They wonder at the spiritual vision of a person who jumps from the World Trade Center to certain death, but don't wonder about the millions of people who do the same thing with tobacco?"

Excuse me? When I light a cigarette, I am doing it by choice. I am not being forced by terrorism to make a choice between smoking and not smoking. I do not say a prayer or put my faith in a higher being to help me when I purchase a pack of cigarettes. To compare the spiritual decision of a smoker to the spiritual decision of a person who has to choose between burning to death or jumping out of the window of a skyscraper to his death is heinous.

"New York is a world city. The last gasps of isolationism will be snuffed out by more humiliation, until we get the truth, we aren't above the rest of the world, but we are part of it."

Yes, but New York is part of my world. It's part of my country. My making September 11 out to be more than an upheaval or a tiny tragedy does not mean I am an isolationist or I don't care about what's going on in the rest of the world. It doesn't mean I think that I, or my neighbors, or my fellow citizens are more important than anyone else. It only means I took it personally, as did most Americans.

Just ask the loved ones of the victims how tiny a tragedy it seems. Ask the thousands of widows and widowers and children and parents who lost someone they held close to their hearts if they should be feeling guilty about thinking only of their sorrow at this time and not of people dying of famine in Africa.

No one has a right to take your sorrow or grief away from you. No one has the right to tell you that your grief is misplaced or not big enough or not all ecompassing enough, least of all a person who places so much importance on his own sense of self.


Apples and oranges.

The events of 9/11/2001 were not preventible by behavioral changes. They are the result of overt malevolence, hate, and evil.

AIDS and famine are preventible by behavioral changes. Sure, the drugs will relieve the suffering after getting the bug or sending food will ease the hunger for a while, but it all could have been prevented if Limbobo didn't hump 10 kids out of N'gaha after visiting the local prostitute and doomed them all.

Even if that relief is offered, watch for the corrupt governing powers of those regions to demand cash. It'll be spent on everything but the drugs, food, and educational programs... guns, personal jets, mansions, etc.

If Arafat robbed the NGO's for $1.3 billion, I'd love to know how much more Mugabe and N'Beko robbed the duped at the EU, UN, and USAID with starving peasants on the glossy covers (with gold-embossed titles) of their presentations.

Flame away.

Don't you wonder what motivates the people who seem to belittle the grieving of another? Why is that? Why can't we continue to feel deep sorrow about the loss of so many lives in New York? Must we temper that grief just to satisfy others? I honestly don't understand it. They seem to have empathy only for the horrors that are visited on the rest of the world, but because we are privileged Americans, we have no right to continue to grieve over the events of 9/11. I just don't get it.

I never dreamed Dave would be worthy of restarting the Susan Sontag Awards. But that's got to be the top contender for the "how quickly we forget" award.

It pretty well scorched my hiney, too.

Laurence: Some would argue that the catastrophe of 9/11 indeed were preventible by behavioral changes on the part of the US government.

Yes, let's blame the behavior of the US government, or the behavior of Americans in general, because after all, those 19 nice lads were just beach-balls aimlessly floating down the river of life, who found themselves suddenly thrust into a cockpit with a building in front of them.

It couldn't have had anything to do with their behavior. They were just victims.

Tomas: A pair of building full of civilians performing private business is not the U.S. Government.

Notice how I never mentioned the Pentagon. That's another issue. I can't argue that it isn't a legit military target. It is a military building.

However, the method involved murdered innocent civilians, too. The weapon used, a commercial aircraft, contained civilians and used them as "human shields and hostages" right up until they struck.

So how are these civilians are different from, say, Palestinians moved into an apartment block willingly to shield terrorists and murderers of the PFLP or Hamas, or civilians in mosques, hospitals, or schools willingly built on Iraqi military organizations as a form of protection?

Tell me what purely military institution and objective the WTC was protecting and I'll won't consider you a "moral equivalency" spewing pig.


Every death is an individual one. Killing many people at once deliberately is a terrible crime, but those who remain alive grieve one by one for those who died. AIDS, famine, heart attack, terrorism, cancer, car accident, suicide, childbirth, aneurysm: when the black camel kneels, it's time to go, and the people who love you get no say in the matter.

So you should ask yourself, those of you who are dumping on Michele: if you were killed by someone or something tomorrow, who would grieve for you? And would you leave behind a legacy of compassion and caring, or did you simply go through life pissing on people's opinions and not once making the world a better place, even for a few minutes?

Michele and I would be missed. Would you?

One person's sorrow is another's apathy.

"They seem to have empathy only for the horrors that are visited on the rest of the world, but because we are privileged Americans, we have no right to continue to grieve over the events of 9/11. I just don't get it."

Nor do I, Suze, nor do I. And I wonder if all this empathy for the world's victims by all these folks who won't allow us ours was also spent on the African victims of the Embassy bombings a few years back, or were some of those folks blamed because, after all, they worked for the Americans there?

The remarkable callousness of Americans over this day frighens me. I embrace all, but I cringe at the notion that my pride as an American is inappropriate to some because not all the victims were Americans. To see those things an mutuallly exculsive is what will divide us forever. Rather than the unity I'd hoped to see over this day, all I'm seeing is the assertion of particular internal political agendas that have only as their aim to polarize people over anything other than pride at being American.

Laurence: "Tomas: A pair of building full of civilians performing private business is not the U.S. Government."
Please, tell me when I claimed it to be, because quite frankly, I don't remember every having claimed so in my hole life.

I'm just saying that some indeed do argue that the catatrophe was preventible by behavioural changes on the US government. Some do.

And then again, some genuinely belive that terrorists are motivated by nothing more complex than a blind unreasoning hatred of freedom.

They wonder at the spiritual vision of a person who jumps from the World Trade Center to certain death, but don't wonder about the millions of people who do the same thing with tobacco?

Um... Huh? Can you say "flawed logic?" Asshat.

Tomas, whether it could have been prevented or not is NOT Michele's point here. And thanks for pointing out that cartoon, because according to that I am not a real American ... but the thing is, I AM a real American. I question the actions of Bush (idiot), I personally believe that the government probably could have done things differently, and I don't appreciate them trying to take away my rights under the guise of needing to do so for the nation's security.

BUT ... NONE of that matters HERE. Even with all the feelings I listed above, I mourn for the innocent people that got up on 9/11 and went to work, thinking it was just another normal day. It was far from normal. And the point that really hits home is ... that could have been me. Or you. Or any of us. No, I don't live in New York, but I got up that morning and went to work, not even aware of the events that were starting. I didn't know until I got to the office. If I had been there, worked there ... it could have been me.

And I still wonder and worry about the terrorist out there. Will they pollute our water supplies and try to kill us all? Will they attack federal buildings?

Tomas, you live in a country that has a much longer history then our own. We have never been through a war like this on our own soil. I feel sorry for people that live in countries such as Israel where they face this terrorism daily. We were attacked from out of nowhere, and an innoncence was lost. No, we are not a perfect country. I have many issues with it. But peopole got up that morning and went to work ... and they died a horrible death. I will mourn them.

Sorry for my babbling Michele, it just had to be said.

Christine: I know it is not, and I never claimed it to be, Michele's point. My response was one to Laurence Simon who claimed it to be, unlike other catastrophes (like famine, aids etc), unpreventable by behavioural changes.
I merely pointed out that some do argue that behavioral changes of the US government actually could have prevented it. Some do.

Tomas if you wouldn't mind restricting the arguments that you post to ones you personally believe the discussion could possibly move forward. You post these comments and then as soon as someone tries to discuss it with you, you turn around and say you don't believe it, you never said it.

I doubt anyone could convince me that there was anything the US Goverment could or should have done to prevent the 9-11 tragedies, but I would actually listen to someone who genuinely believed it and respectfully presented it to me. So if you know those some that do, send them over, and let them do their own talking.

(Walking away from the "hole life" slip because it speaks for itself. )

Cis: Wether your distorted mind like it or not, I've never claimed it to be Michele's point, I've never said the US government IS the World Trade Center nor that it was a military unit.

Laurence argued that this catastrophe, unlike others, was unpreventable by behavioural changes, I pointed out that some do argue that it indeed was.

That is simply how it is, I don't see any reason why I should have to just look and see while you put words in my mouth.

Wether someone can convince you of the argument in question or not is something I don't care that much about. But, do you really think that America was attacked because, uh, arabs hate the "freedom loving world" (as your president eloquently likes to put it)? Me, I think -- I belive, it is something a weee tiny bit more intricate than that.

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